Says a lot about what Dems think of their base, that they are stupid enough to be fooled by something like this, huh?
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Rob, I posted the flyer without comment. So I believe the first appology should go to me. Since I do not have any proof that it is being done, at least no more proof than the right does regarding wild accussations about Democratic voter fraud, I do not swear by its legitimacy. I simply posted it with a link to its original source, which if you read you will have a better idea of proof or lack thereof.
Rob
· 5 years ago
You posted the flyer with comment. The title of your post is a clear implication of Republicans.
As for accusations of DNC voter fraud, I've made none. I've complained about voter registration fraud in general and have called for an end to independent voter registration.
But even if I did, telling me that implicating Republicans with unfounded claims of minority voter intimidation is ok because Republicans accuse Democrats of voter fraud seems like a pretty poor defense.
Just because your opposition does something wrong doesn't mean that you're cleared to do the same wrong.
Rob
· 5 years ago
Who else would be distributing these posters... Kerry supporters
Could be. It would seem to be a pretty convenient ploy, wouldn't it? Make up some inflamatory flyers of indefinite origin and them pass them off as coming from the GOP.
Tas, as for your request for proof: The truth of the matter is that I don't have to provide it. I'm not the one making the accusation. Ms. Cochran is making the accusation, lets see her provide some proof to back it up.
Like I said, I'll post a retraction and an apology if it turns out GOP agents did this, but don't float that flyer around and then ask the right to disprove that it exists. That's backwards logic and you know it.
And David, as for me doing posts without proof...bring up everything you want. I post my opinions and I always point to the sources from which I get those opinions. If I speculate I make it clear that I am doing so.
And again, what I or any other right-leaning blogger has done in the past has nothing to do with this. The left is making an accusation, I'm asking for proof. Until you provide it, I'm not buying this even one little bit.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Okay Rob. First off, I did not say you were making fun of the issue, I said some of you guys, go read the post at Protein Wisdom. And as far as proof. How many times have post been made on your Blog and others without proof. Do I need to remind you of the famous CNS story on Proof of WMD's. I have a number of other examples I can pull up. Lets just say belay the outrage until there is a definative answer. Who else would be distributing these posters... Kerry supporters?
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Yeah funny you should say that Rob, since it seems that that is exactly the excuse some Republicans are using. Dont worry, I intend to stay on this one until it is proven one way or the other. And I did not comment, my title was just a bit of satire. But I have made up for it by updating the post, since some of you guys seem to want to make fun of an issue that to many of us, speaks to the heart of our democracy.
tas
· 5 years ago
Rob, from the post on my blog in response to your request for proof: "However, when Say Anything says "No need for actual proof," I'm forced to ask for a defition of "proof." The proof left-wing bloggers have provided is that this flyer first popped up on a Sierra Club website. The Sierra Club says Sheila Cochran, from AFL-CIO Voter Protection, brought it to their attention. Of course, anybody can dismiss this proof by saying the Sierra Club and AFL-CIO lean to the left. However, a quick Google search proves that Sheila Cochran is a community activist from Milwaukee, and has been since at least 2002. We're trusting her word on this flyer.
So if anyone on the right has proof that Shelia Cochran is a liar, then let's hear it."
Rob
· 5 years ago
How am I making fun of this issue? Yours and several other websites have posted this scandal without any actual proof. You've made the accusation with no support.
Like I said in the post, innocent until proven guilty.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Okay, then we are posting the opinion that we think this is a GOP Ploy to dissenfranchise Black Voters, and the GOP has a history of it. And we are not asking you to buy it. You wouldnt buy it if Cheney and Rove were photographed personaly handing them out. The post was not made by any of us to change Conservative minds, but forgive me for seeing it as hypocritical that you and other other "right-leaning bloggers" can post something like the CNS story, never retract it, and then lecture someone on ethics in posting. Did you retract the story?
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
No... I dont understand why you make the assumption or claim that I am being "loose," with the truth. The relation to the CNS story is obvious. You presented the story as potentially true. I am doing the same with this one, what is so hard to understand about that? Unless you dont want to understand. I have not claimed that the document is true. I am simply pointing it out as potentially disenfranchising to minority voters, which it is, regardless of who is responsible for it. And if ONE black voter does not vote becuase of it, it has disernfranchised one voter. Why cant you understand why I would be concerned about it, just as you have been concerned about issues which may impact your candidate.
tas
· 5 years ago
Tas, as for your request for proof: The truth of the matter is that I don't have to provide it. I'm not the one making the accusation. Ms. Cochran is making the accusation, lets see her provide some proof to back it up.
Actually Rob, you asked for proof and I provided it. While you have every right to air your opinion and disagree with this story, I think it's a low blow to continue placing the burden of proof on me when I told you who's making the claims and asked if you, or anybody else, could find out if she's a liar. Are there any instances in the past where she has misled the public? Seeing that she's respected enough as a community activist to be appointed to a panel setup by the Governor of Wisconsin, I say the burden of proof is now on your head.
Rob
· 5 years ago
What the heck does the CNS story have to do with this? Is that really going to be your defense? That Republicans are loose with the truth so its ok for you to be?
And don't throw that "history of disenfranchisement" around. I could point to some old southern Dems say that the Democrats have a history of race baiting and segregation, but I'm not going to.
There is a very simple question to answer here. You are accusing the Republicans of trying to intimidate minority voters by posting a document with unknown origins. Please prove that this document had anything to do with Republicans.
That's all I'm asking, but all I'm getting back is a bunch of non-sense that is the equivalent of "you lie too so its ok."
And, for the record, I would believe your claims if you had photos of Rove and Cheney handing the flyers out. Lets not be silly.
tas
· 5 years ago
Jeff, who do you think this flyer came from, Kerry supporters? Democrats? ACT? The AFL-CIO?
Do you actually think the Bush supporters who released an intimidation flyer like this are going to come out and say, "Yup, we did it!"
Oh, I got it! Maybe the ACT volunteers should chase down the people handle out these flyers and beat the crap out of them until they admit who their working for! Of course, then we'll hear about violence against Republicans, and blah blah blah...
Please.
These flyers are an anonymous intimidation tactic against black voters, and the author's identity isn't meant to be known. We'll probably never find out who exactly released the flyers. But do you honestly think it was a Democrat? Or ACT? How can you sit there and tell me that the person or group responsibile for these flyers aren't Bush supporters? You keep on griping about how the flyer is so ridiculous that it can't be real, but it is. And there are eyewitness accounts saying that it's being handed on in black Milwaukee neighborhoods. So we've got proof that it's real, and we've got a well respect civil rights activist leading the charge against the flyers.
So please, don't tell me this isn't a hachet job from Bush supporters. And don't call me a child just because I've dug up the evidence you've all asked for, but choose to ignore it.
Jeff G
· 5 years ago
Forget it, Rob. It's like arguing with children.
Dave: CNS story, sourced. The source was CNS. So that's where culpability goes if the story is faulty.
Tas: In the Milwaukee case, the flyer's origin is unknown. But to get around that, you seem to think repeating the bona fides of the woman who complained makes your case for you. But that the woman complained is not in question. It's who is responsible for creating and distributing what she's complaining about that is at issue here. And her record as a Civil Rights worker doesn't give her magical powers to divine that.
Which brings us back to the point both Rob and I are making: don't attribute this to Republicans without proof, because that's a serious charge. And the moronic, cartoonish content on the flyer leads me to believe that no organized Republican group is behind this. If they are, they should be condemned, as I said on my site.
Period.
JustSaying
· 5 years ago
What about that flyer in Tennessee mocking the special olympian Bush? Apparently some Republicans dumped a few in a trash can by the Democratic offices and surprisingly discovered them there. The accusations flew. Many people are convinced of the push-polling in South Carolina 2000. There doesn't appear to be any audio recordings to serve as evidence, without which many are convinced it never happened. Who knows? Southern Democrat Strom Thurmond died a Republican. Any doubt what Trent Lott's party affiliation would have been in 1960? Or any other of today's Southern Republicans?
wren
· 5 years ago
Don't be too quick to judge. Take a look at this effort at minority disenfranchisement. Truly disturbing.
the Hitt piece on NPR catalogs just the latest in a long series of slimey GOP strategies to steal votes. It is transcribed at http://moshthevote.com
Marc
· 5 years ago
It is naive to assume that the Republicans are not responsible for this, considering their history of systematic and widespread voter fraud (please look at TomChicago's post if you want to see the journalistic support for this statement).
Just because Republicans have been the main perpetrators of voter fraud doesn't mean that Republicans MUST have been behind this -- but it makes it very likely, in fact, so likely that the burden of proof is on the Republicans to prove that they DIDN'T do it.
This is the logic: you don't know for sure if the sun is coming up tomorrow. You can't prove it (you probably could, but it would be very very difficult). It may rise in the West, who knows. However, given the Sun's history, it would be pretty ridiculous to claim that it isn't going to rise in the east tomorrow morning.
Before you get hot and bothered, it is not my intention to argue that the probability of the sun rising in the east is equal to the probability that Republicans are trying to disenfranchise voters -- that wasn't my point. I wanted to show you why Republicans don't deserve the benefit of the doubt in this case because they have a long history of fraud.
You are correct that people are innocent until proven guilty -- in a court of law. By neccessity, the standards in the court of public opinion need to be much lower. That doesn't mean that any charge should be considered true by default but some charges are more credible than others based on the historical context.
Let's play a game. Given these charges, how credible in they are in the "court of public opinion?" What kind of evidence would you need to make the charge stick or at least keep you from being embarrassed by repeating it?
The charges <ul><li> John Kerry rapes goats -- not very plausible, but could theoretically be true! Not really worth investigating.snap judgment: not credible</li> <li>John Kerry thinks Bush has an IQ of 75 -- kinda out there, but Kerry does seem kind of like an elitist snap judgment: doesn't seem very credible, a "smoking gun" like an audiotape or something similarly damning would be needed to give this legs.</li> <li>John Kerry is having an affair -- given that almost 50% of men are unfaithful to their wives at some time, this is pretty plausible off the bat snap judgment: it wouldn't surprise me if it was true -- who in Congress hasn't had an affair? Find the mistress or other evidence and you're in business. Otherwise, probably not prudent to assume this is true.</li> <li>Republicans are using dirty tactics to keep voters from showing up in a swing state -- well, given that it is happening in nevada, ohio, florida and god knows where else, milwaukee makes sense snap judgment: this story is "dog bites man". if the dems planted it, that would be "man bites dog." it's up to the republicans to prove "man bites dog" in this case</li></ul>
Jeff G
· 5 years ago
Whatever. When I go blind, it won't be from hate. I choose masturbation.
Jeff G
· 5 years ago
Incidentally, just to put your ravings into the sort of context you can understand, allow me rewrite Marc:
"It's naive to assume the Blacks aren't responsible for this, considering their history of sytemic and widespread embrace of X.
Just because blacks have been the main perpetrators of doesn't mean that blacks MUST be behind this -- but it makes it very likely, in fact, so likely that the burden of proof is on blacks to prove they DIDN'T do it."
Let the howling begin.
Rob
· 5 years ago
You guys can try to justify your little smear on Republicans all you want. Spin, spin, spin. The truth is you have no proof what-so-ever that this flyer came from anyone affiliated with the Republicans. No. Proof. Period.
You've got nothing. You've got a woman in Milwaukee, who is affiliated with an organizaton responsible for some pretty nasty political hijinks this election season, claiming to have found the flyer. No eye-witnesses have come forward claiming that they were given the flyer or even saw anyone giving out the flyer.
I'm sorry, but I am not about to accept this story as true until we get more evidence. When and if we do I will gladly retract my opinions. But I don't think that's going to happen and you all know it.
Yo
· 5 years ago
Er ... the Sierra Club page you linked to says that the AFL-CIO and Sierra Club are trying to call attention to the attempted voter suppression, NOT that they are the ones doing it.
Man, talk about a straw man argument! Perhaps some remedial reading comprehension courses are in order for you.
Rob
· 5 years ago
The truth is we don't know who is responsible for the flyer and its irresponsible to blame Republicans in a knee-jerk reaction to it. I'm not setting up any straw man arguments, I'm just asking for some proof before I make up my mind. I may have my theories, but I'm not going to say that any of them are true until we get some proof.
kes
· 5 years ago
This is not much different than the what the GOP did in Ohio. They sent out thousands of bogus registrations with fake addresses in Ohio and then Laughably got all bent out of shape when Ohio recieved "thousands of non deliverable addresses" They should know. They sent em. Instant need for challenges. Those damn Democrats are trying to steal the election !! LMAO
Rob
· 5 years ago
The GOP in Ohio sent out letters to what were supposed to be the addresses of newly-registered voters. A ton of those letters came back undeliverable.
You're telling me that you wouldn't be suspicious of that were the DNC to do the same thing?
Give me a break.
Freen
· 5 years ago
Um, the northeast regional manager of the bush campaign is being indicted for voter fraud.
Next patsy equivocation of democratic gotv with republican voter fraud please.
jasjdfjasdf
· 5 years ago
Oh please. Fliers just like this has been circulating in black, Democratic neighborhoods since I've been alive.
I don't blame the GOP as an organization, but certainly some asshole Southern racist group is responsible. However, the RNC has never acknowledged and denounced this sort of bullshit, for obvious reasons (it's GOOD for them as long as there is plausible deniability), and that -- to me -- is just as bad.
The same principle applies to gerrymandering Congressional districts to concentrate white power, and creating felon purge-rolls that are wildly inaccurate, or setting up roadblocks to polling places, or having people dress up as police officers to hang out at polling places.
Anyone who defends these actions, or denies that they occur, should be ashamed of themselves.
Rob, those letters were sent registered mail, and had to be picked up at the post office, and clearly state that they were from the republican party. any letter not picked up were considered valid to challenge a voter. Would you go to the post office to pick up a registered letter from the democrats?
nolo
· 5 years ago
Rob, some of the people who ended up on the "challenge" list in Ohio were soldiers serving in Iraq. Others were people who'd been registered voters in Ohio for years. In any event, once they got a sense of what the challenges were based on, even Republican election officials in Ohio were disgusted. After hearing the substance of three or four of the "challenges" brought by the Republican party against voters in Summit County, Ohio, the Republican head of the Summit County Board of Elections threw out the remaining 970 or so without bothering to hear any more.
Rob
· 5 years ago
When I get registered mail all I get is a notification saying that its at the post office for me to pick up. It doesn't say who its from.
tas
· 5 years ago
The truth is you have no proof what-so-ever that this flyer came from anyone affiliated with the Republicans. No. Proof. Period.
Wrong. You're simply ignoring the proof.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Seth, I did not know you were Black, right on Bro! Pull my coat tail and tell me what Republicans have done for us, I am going to run out and Blog it.
Seth Yantiss
· 5 years ago
These flyers are an anonymous intimidation tactic against black voters, and the author's identity isn't meant to be known. We'll probably never find out who exactly released the flyers. But do you honestly think it was a Democrat? Or ACT? How can you sit there and tell me that the person or group responsibile for these flyers aren't Bush supporters? You keep on griping about how the flyer is so ridiculous that it can't be real, but it is. And there are eyewitness accounts saying that it's being handed on in black Milwaukee neighborhoods. So we've got proof that it's real, and we've got a well respect civil rights activist leading the charge against the flyers.
So please, don't tell me this isn't a hachet job from Bush supporters. And don't call me a child just because I've dug up the evidence you've all asked for, but choose to ignore it.
Tas, On one line you say no one knows who did it, on the next you blame Bush supporters. If it is so obvious that Bush supporters did this, then don't you think they would have thought about how obvious it would appear, and then not do it?
For some reason blacks seem to support Democrats, when history clearly shows that the Republican party has done more to empower blacks than Democrats have.
Rumblelizard
· 5 years ago
I live in Milwaukee, and I honestly don't believe the local GOP did this. They're doing other shady things like trying to limit the number of ballots printed (they wanted to print fewer than there were for the 2000 election despite record numbers of new voter registration and unprecedented interest in this election.) But that flier smacks of amateurism.
The question about a flyer like this is, who benefits? If it achieves its intended purpose, which is obviously to intimidate certain people and keep them from voting, who benefits? Where was it distributed? To whom was it directed? And which candidate are the recipients of this flier more likely to vote for?
Whoever did it, I think we can all agree that it's disgusting and outrageous.
Seth Yantiss
· 5 years ago
You all remember the Draft Bill that Charlie Rangle introduced, right? Then Kerry and Edwards used that to implicate Bush as a proponent of the Draft.
Whomever is to blame for this, the lawyers now have Fodder... even if it turns out to be a Democrat supporter... Or Kerry himself... the fodder can now be used to claim disenfranchisement.
I seriously doubt that we will ever "really" know who did this... but it wouldn't surprise me to learn it was a lawyer...
edub
· 5 years ago
So it's irresponsible to blame Republicans for this?
tas, you say I'm ignoring proof. Where is it? I'm asking for it. I want to see it. All you've offered is this flyer and the commens of one, partisan-linked woman. That is cleary not enough.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Those comments are so ridiculous and racist in their nature as to not benefit a response, at least here. I will blog about it later.
DA
Seth Yantiss
· 5 years ago
Seth, I did not know you were Black, right on Bro! Pull my coat tail and tell me what Republicans have done for us, I am going to run out and Blog it.
Okay, besides abolishing slavery, enabling blacks and women to vote, and passing most equality laws, nothing much I guess.
But really, it's not so much what they have done for you as what they haven't done against you.
One of the best things about America is the principle that "All men "(meaning humans)" are created equal." The atmosphere of America is one of individual ambition achieves success. Black Democrat leaders, such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, hurt our country by giving people the rhetoric that continues to feed racism. Can any of you sit in your chair and, being TOTALLY HONEST with yourselves, say that if provided the chance, right now, to go back in time and relive your childhood, you would not have done things that would have made you a millionaire by your current age? Invest in Stocks? Learn about certain fields that seemed to be on the verge of a boon? Study more in school? Not get involved in drugs? We have all had this opportunity, we (who are middle class like me) just didn't know enough to do anything with it. We are all given the opportunity to achieve great things as soon as we are born in this country. What we do with this opportunity is done with EACH CHOICE WE MAKE. Everyday, we make choices that affect the rest of our lives. Believing that someone holds you back is a choice, in this country. Believing that you are held back is self defeating. You loose the will to improve yourself when you can blame it on another.
I grew up in New Hampshire. I can honestly say that I never heard a truly racist thing come from anyone while I grew up. I heard ethnic jokes, but they were about all ethnicities. Today I firmly believe that all humans are equal in being. They are not all equal in individualism.
I am not clueless. I do understand that there are some people who would reject another simply because they have a different skin color, but to blame that person for your losses diminishes yourself, reduces your self worth in your minds eye, and that self worth is translated into how you respect others, and ultimately how well you will do in society.
I live in Florida today, it's hard not to notice that the majority of the people wanting handouts appear to be black. And the largest group of those supporting these handouts appear to be black. Take reparations, for instance. I started my adult life in the US with almost nothing. I had some clothes, a car that I lived in, and that was about it. I found a job! I learned a skill! Before age 20, I was educated to an AVERAGE level. When I became an adult, I left my fathers home with nothing. I was given nothing. The car I had, I bought, the clothes I bought. Do I deserve reparations too? Every black today is at least a generation removed from slavery. With the right education from birth, from your parents, not school, would allow you, regardless of race, to succeed. Thinking that you need a handout because of your race is self racism.
I know the statistics that say that there are more black prisoners than white. I know this isn't PC, but couldn't it just be the case that more crime is committed by blacks than whites? It's not about skin color though, it's the mind set instilled in each of us by our parents.
anselpixel
· 5 years ago
I linked this yesterday off the blog of a Sierra Club guy. If you've ever attended a Sierra Club meeting or had any contact with them, you can't seriously think they represent the extreme left. I don't know about the AFL-CIO link, so I won't comment on that, but the union vote has trended very much Republican since the days of Nixon. I have also linked to two newspaper stories covering similar activity in the past 24 hours, one from Cleveland, Ohio and the other from Columbus, South Carolina. At no time do I recall anyone saying anything about the Republican Party. However, as a Southerner and an unmutated conservative, I can surely tell you that a hit dog will holler.
triticale
· 5 years ago
Yes, it is true that the Republicans in Milwaukee have been trying to hold down the number of ballots printed. After the last election, $20,000 worth of unused ballots had to be destroyed. The goal was to hold the run to only two per registered voter rather than the 3 times what is needed that the city wanted. In the rest of the state, one spare ballot for every four voters is all they get.
In the last presidential election, a representative of the DNC was videotaped buying votes, and there were solid reports of repeat voting. The District Attorney refused to even investigate. This time around, he and other city officials are ignoring massive irregularities in the vote generation activities of the "non-partisan" operations bankrolled by an international currency speculator. One of these operations is run by a woman who stepped down from elected office to end inquiries into how she had been elected. Our DA has, however, said that he will prosecute anyone who tests the registration process by making false representation with the intent of exposing potential fraud. This is, please note, a solidly Democrat city administration.
Also note that there is a strong, semi-anonymous, drive in the inner city to lead my neighbors to believe that they need to show up the infamous "them" who are trying to suppress their vote. This bogus flyer may well have been printed by the same people who put a card under my door which begins "They tried to stop us from voting with dogs and fire hoses..." in an attempt to suggest that "they" are still at it.
Rob
· 5 years ago
I've created a new post concerning Seth's comments. If you want to discuss that comment please click here.
I'd rather not clutter up the posts to this comment with an off-topic discussion.
et alia
· 5 years ago
Personally, I like the idea that someone making an accusation must actually prove their accusation to be true before I have to believe it. You know, that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.
Innocent until proven guilty is the rule in a court of criminal law—but that's not where we are. We've individual citizens expressing our views on the likely provenance of this flyer. While we should all try to be as fair as possible, we do not need to hold ourselves to the evidentiary standards of a criminal proceeding.
Given other news about Republican malfeasance regarding vote suppression, I think a fair and reasonable standard of proof for this matter should be this: if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck (note the right column in particular), I'm entitled to treat it like a duck—or in this case, another attempt by the Republicans at preventing people from voting.
While you give the correct definition of a straw man argument, the claim that the flyer is a product of the Republican party—if you want to attack it on form rather than substance—might be an example of a conclusion that does not follow from its premises, i.e., a non sequitur, even though the claim is plausible given other facts not in dispute. On the other hand, a straw man argument, to make the definition you've given more precise, is one where you impute to your opponent a position they do not in fact hold, and then attack that position. For example, suppose Smith believes that bloggers who make claims that aren't supported by the links they include—for example, claiming a link to a an organization that mentions a smear tactic is therefore itself the author of said smear tactic—are either stupid or dishonest. If Jones were then to say that Smith is an enemy of free speech and go on to enumerate the vices of opposing free speech, then Jones would have constructed a straw man. Smith's position that sloppy bloggers are either stupid or dishonest is therefore not refuted.
Darleen
· 5 years ago
Jaysus on a Pony
Anyone who reads that "flyer" down to the last couple of knee-slapping howlers and actually takes it seriously is either a boob or hopes the people s/he is promoting this to are boobs.
violate these laws and lose your children????
Yeah. Sure. Uh huh.
Now, just what group of people feel that African-Americans are so stupid that only the nobless oblige of the obviously superior white man allows them to get along in American society at all? Which group of people feel that melanin content dictates political affiliation and any that stray off the plantation are "inauthentic?"
Which group of people have most to gain by taking the focus off the documented physical assaults, vandalism and even shootings of their political opponents ...
And let's not forget the wonderful new spin on Orwell speak from CBS's own failed attempt at electioneering "fake but accurate."
Tas, David et al... you're worthy of helping OJ in his hunt for the "real killers."
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Rob: Is that how you are explaining the NAACP letter and the other documents that have come out in recent days as well. Along with the phone calls to Democratic registered senior citizen voters directing them to the wrong polling place?
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Who the hell are you? I think with my gonads. Maybe that explains my success in life. And lets see you are a middle class soccer mom who plans to vote for bush and that makes you an expert on law. Please, go away and let the big boys discuss this. I was standing at the feet of my parents fighting this kind of thing in Southern VA and North Carolina before you were born. And if you guys choose to put your head in the sand and say, there is no way my leaders would do something like this, that is your perogative, but we will FIGHT, and we will win. We have already won some battles in Ohio where Republican Dirty tricks tried to get some legitimate voters kicked off the rolls, and we will win this one too. and you really need to read the facts before engaging in debate, it was NOT ONE flyer, and this has not been the only example of this type of ploy. To be honest, I dont know why I am even discussing this with you people, you have your own version of reality that NOTHING is going to change. I would hazzard to guess that even if someone had been arressted handing out the fliers, you would deny it and say he was a Democratic plant.
Rob
· 5 years ago
No, David, the real strawman is your attempts to associate Republicans with this when the reality of the matter is that the document came from a political operative on the left who has not been clear at all about how she got it.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
I think you are missing the point. It is not that black people are that stupid. It is the idiot conservative racist who thinks black people are that stupid and who wrote the document to reflect that, who is STUPID. The real Strawman here is your attempts to dissassociate Republicans from this by claiming it is too stupid to have come from a Republican Group.
Darleen
· 5 years ago
David
Please don't go into law. You think with your gonads instead of your brain.
A flyer turns up in the hands of ONE person, purportedly being "distributed" by persons unknown in "minority" neighborhoods.
SURE, a police officer would come out and take a report, they have to do that. But any sargent with a lick of sense would take one look at the flyer and would know better to even bother the local DA with such a smelly piece of offal.
Nice try. Vanna has some parting gifts for you ...
kes
· 5 years ago
The GOP in Ohio have done everything possible to get te murderer reelected.
DrDeath (chimp) had a world record amount of death penalty cases . Death fried 150, the last was a mentally retarded fella with the mind of a six years old. Now with him running the country he's killed how many in civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq? One hundred thousand would be a conservative estimate.
They have a special room in Hell waiting on DrDeath. He will die screaming - the same as those he's put to death.
triticale
· 5 years ago
kes:
Among the people to be sentenced to death in Texas by a jury of their peers while Bush was Governor of Texas was two of the three perpetrators of the pickup truck lynching. Are you calling for a commutation of their sentences?
That one hundred thousand is not a conservative estimate, it is the mid-range of a SWAG based on misapplied statistical expansion of a non-typical sample. It could also be no more than eight thousand.
tas
· 5 years ago
"All it were legal for all blacks to vote..."
IF it were legal, rather.
Darleen
· 5 years ago
Thanks, David for proving my point.
And some say women are the ones to get hysterical.
And OH! I'm so cut to the quick by the label "soccer mom." Heaven's, you're so right... at the hospital while giving birth, us women are required to give up our brains and our rights to have any political thought or engage in debate.
Having a bit of trouble dealing with a woman, David? Hmmmm... I wonder if this is one of the reasons the Left is so enamored of the jihadists.
Sweetcheeks, I work in the judicial arena. Don't try and teach your grandma to suck eggs.
Kes
If California's Prop 66 is passed, can I send these guys to be your neighbors? I mean, seeing as you have such sympathy for poor oppressed criminals and all ...
tas
· 5 years ago
Rob, I've said it before and I'll say it again: You continue to ignore the evidence I have presented.
This conversation reminds me of Republicans trying to say that Bush never said "Mission Accomplished" when he made a speech from the deck of an aircraft carrier last May where there was a huge banner behin him that said, in very bold letters, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED." But since he never said the very words that were behind him, larger than life, Republicans have sought to say that Democrats are lying about the president.
In short, this argument is getting just as stupid. It's getting to the point where the only evidence you'll believe is a rubber stamped confession from George W. Bush himself saying that somebody who didn't want Kerry elected handed out these flyers.
Well guess what? History is against you. The evidence I've presented, that you continue to ignore, is against you. And speaking of evidence, you haven't even a shred that Democrats could be behind this flyer. Furthermore, there is no logical reason for Democrats to make such a flyer because all of their organized efforts in swing states have been geared owards getting out the votes for Kerry, not surpressing them. Besides, it's not like we need another "Republicans surpressing the vote" story to spread, because your side has already given us plenty of those, including some that can be traced directly back to the RNC headquarters.
As for history, I may not be black, but I do know that blacks regularly receive tougher sentences than white people for the same crimes. And due to racial profiling, they are targetted more often. Therefore, more black people find themselves behind bars for BS reasons, and then the Republicans seek to take away their right to vote after they've done they're time. Make no mistake: All it were legal for all blacks to vote, Republicans would have much, much less power in this country. And don't you think for a second that black people don't know this, and relate Republicans constant pushing of "tough on crime" measures as surpressing the power of their community. And blacks have constantly been targeted by hate and intimidation campaigns to surpress their electoral power, some of which could never be directly chased back to the GOP but -- Surprise! -- Guess who it just happens to benefit?
And you know as well as I do that the point of an intimidation tactic, such as this flyer, is to be anonymous. It's a threat. It's saying, "If you don't fall into line, we'll come and get you."
So by saying that we cannot imply that Republicans are responsbile for distributing this flyer is silly, and it shows that you either have an ignorance of history, or you're just blatantly ignoring it for the purposes of furthering your arguments, probably because you have no actual evidence to back up your arguments. What we do know is the flyer exists, there are eyewitnesses who can verify that it's being distributed in black nighborhoods, there's a very well respected community leader leading the charge against it, and the Republican party just happens to have a history of surpressing the black vote.
The burden of proof isn't on us, Rob. It's on you.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Oooooh, she works in the DA's office, I am impressed now, you might even say I am in awe, as in awe s$%t. LOL! The reality is I could care less about what you do, where you work or what your bonifides are. And as for proving this, do you actually think that anyone is going to prove anything before election day? No.... But we are aware, and that alone is worth much to me. Actualy I am not too concerned about it one way or the other, becuase all this is doing in firing us up. And that gumby in the white house will be gone in a few days.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
Talk about Strawmen, how did this go from a discussion on Blacks being dissenfranchised in Milwaukee to a discussion about Three Strikes in CA. And you were the one who started the insults Sister, so turn it arround and make me into a sexist, it wont fly. But that seems to be a common conservative tactic these days, deflect debate by changing the subject. You have zero credibility in addressing this issue Darleen, and what does work in the legal arena mean? Is that like a janitor calling themselves a sanitorial engineer? You should know Darleen that I am not one of those liberals that go running at the sight and sound of Republican soundbites. You want to make a logic based argument as to why we should not believe that this document is the work of... at best a GOP supporter and at worst operatives within the GOP, go ahead, you want to keep making arguments about whose "gonads," are the biggest, you will lose...
Darleen
· 5 years ago
David
I'm not your "sister" so do try to stop channeling Han Solo in an effort prove your masculine street creds.
You and others are making a charge that the flyer (A) is not a parody (B) has been distributed by Republicans
The first is opinion, the second has not one shred of direct evidence to support it. No one has identified the mysterious GOP operative that has allegedly distributed whole big bunches of these things .. or maybe it was one of those Rovian Black Helicopters dropping it by the bushelfull during a new moon and using his powerful mindbeams to wipe out the memory of any helicopters in the area..
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Re 3 strikes... I wasn't changing the subject ... I know this might be a tad difficult but try and keep up.. you might have seen I was addressing Kes, who was doing a typical Leftist "I love perps, screw the victims they're dead anyway" dance.
David, when you get around to some direct evidence..you know that thing that DA's need before filing charges .. about this icky-poo "Republican" flyer ... be sure and let me know, eh?
Until then my co-workers at the District Attorney's office are going to get such a guffaw or two about this latest (akin to CBS Memogate) scam.
David Anderson
· 5 years ago
I am not even going to bother answering again Tas, lets just let Nov. 2nd speak for us, and get Gommer Pyle out of the White House
Darleen
· 5 years ago
Tas
Unless you produce the person who distributed the flyer or the person who created it, you have no direct evidence.
And since you made the charge, it is up to you to prove it.
That's the way the law works. David doesn't buy it, and maybe you don't either.
You could come here and say you have an actual dollar the tooth fairy left under your pillow, but without direct evidence... like tiny tooth fairy fingerprints or dna on the dollar, it is not up to the rest of us to disproveyour allegations.
tas
· 5 years ago
"part the benefits" party that benefits
I'm really sucking on the keyboard tonight.
tas
· 5 years ago
Furthermore, the expectation of some sort of direct connection to the Republicans in a case where it's so tough to find one is absolutely ridiculous, especially given the mountain of evidence pointing to the GOP. Why such standards have to be applied to our side when your side is allowed to tell any unsubstantiated lie they want about John Kerry is, quite frankly, extremely hypocritical.
As I've said before, history and the evidence is on our side. The burden of proof is on your shoulders now.
tas
· 5 years ago
I'm not going to fall into your attempted (mis)framing of the argument, Darleen, because you know that's what I wasn't talking about. You know damn well that this isn't the case.
This isn't about DAs, this is about a flyer meant to surpress the black vote being distributed in black communities, and the part the benefits just happens to have a long and deep history of surpressing black voters.
History and the evidence are on our side, and it's your side that now has the burden of proof upon you.
And I'm really, really trying to be nice here. Because I don't want to say what I honestly think about people who are this ignorant of history.
tas
· 5 years ago
Ditto, Daivd. I'm done with this, because it's quite obvious that they want to live int heir own little world and ignore anything that proves them wrong.
Darleen
· 5 years ago
The amazing thing is, Tas and David, your attempts at continuing your line of schtick when it's obvious you have no grasp of what you're talking about.
"Mountains of evidence?" Sorry, boys ... not only have you not presented any direct evidence in this case, but when it comes to the so called "who benefits" the "convenient discovery" swings the benefits right back at the Dems. Kind of like the "hate crime hoax" I linked to earlier.
You have opinion and conjecture only, and it holds up as well as a 1972 memo typed on MSWord.
Do your communities a favor and duck jury duty.
AndrewBB
· 5 years ago
triticale - your post has no proof and their are factual statements not merely opinions made.
This "prove it" game is too easy to play. It has no rules.
Everybody lives on a set of beliefs. No one can prove God exists either - but it sure changes the reality on the ground.
et alia
· 5 years ago
Hmm...not a lot of progress since I last checked here. Rob still doesn't understand what a straw man argument is, Darleen seems to think that we're in a courtroom rather than expressing opinions—some of which are more reasonable than others, of course; but by insisting on a courtroom standard of evidence, Darleen pretty much removes hers from the ranks fo the reasonable ones—and an avalance of non-sequiturs and tu quoques.
If the insults were a bit more witty, it might actually be funny. But that's OK. It's just another flame party in a blog's comment area.
Too bad we can't all get together. We could have a barbeque and then play charades or whatever.
I'll bring beer!
Seth Yantiss
· 5 years ago
David / Tas,
Before you go, there is still this little issue about Republicans being the mean nasty hate-monger-ers.
Okay, besides abolishing slavery, enabling blacks and women to vote, and passing most equality laws, nothing much I guess.
Do tell, what Democrats have done for any minority besides implement methods to keep them there?
Or, you could yell "Racist" again, and ignore the question.
At no point in this discussion did you show that this flyer was the work of Republicans. You want to believe that it was Republicans, because you begin your thought process on the premise that all Republicans HATE non-white people. So, of course, it has got to be the nasty Republicans, because everything they do is to keep the little guy on their backs. All they want is oil. George Bush built a time machine and killed off all of the Dinosaurs so he could get the oil in 2004. The Republicans are for Global warming. They want to destroy our world. Genocide is to small a project for the Republicans, they won't stop until the Sun explodes.
Past all of the speculation, is it possible that Republicans are a group of people that identify with the ideals of the individual? Could it be that Republicans adhere to a deeper sense of individual accomplishment and accountability?
Please, do tell me why it is that you feel "Republicans" are the oppressors.
There are individuals in every group, right?
Democrat groups are made up of individuals, right?
Republican groups are made up of individuals, right?
The difference is, Democrats want what is best for the GROUP. Republicans want what is best for the individual.
When your focus is on the Group, some individuals suffer. When your focus is on the individual, everyone benefits. When you focus on groups, some in the group can be lazy. When you focus on the individual, everyone is held accountable.
No, I do not think that all republicans are incorruptible. No human is. But, if your focus is on individuals, it is harder to think in terms of exploitation. Exploiting a group is easy. When your in a group, it's easier to blame others. When you count on individuals, you have an easier time blaming yourself.
MikeAdamson
· 5 years ago
The thing this non-American finds so ironic about this election is that there isn't a great deal of difference between Republican and Democratic policy. Some differences in means to the end and who the policy wonks will be but when it comes right down to it, it's two shades of the same colour.
All Comments
Since I do not have any proof that it is being done, at least no more proof than the right does regarding wild accussations about Democratic voter fraud, I do not swear by its legitimacy. I simply posted it with a link to its original source, which if you read you will have a better idea of proof or lack thereof.
As for accusations of DNC voter fraud, I've made none. I've complained about voter registration fraud in general and have called for an end to independent voter registration.
But even if I did, telling me that implicating Republicans with unfounded claims of minority voter intimidation is ok because Republicans accuse Democrats of voter fraud seems like a pretty poor defense.
Just because your opposition does something wrong doesn't mean that you're cleared to do the same wrong.
Could be. It would seem to be a pretty convenient ploy, wouldn't it? Make up some inflamatory flyers of indefinite origin and them pass them off as coming from the GOP.
Tas, as for your request for proof: The truth of the matter is that I don't have to provide it. I'm not the one making the accusation. Ms. Cochran is making the accusation, lets see her provide some proof to back it up.
Like I said, I'll post a retraction and an apology if it turns out GOP agents did this, but don't float that flyer around and then ask the right to disprove that it exists. That's backwards logic and you know it.
And David, as for me doing posts without proof...bring up everything you want. I post my opinions and I always point to the sources from which I get those opinions. If I speculate I make it clear that I am doing so.
And again, what I or any other right-leaning blogger has done in the past has nothing to do with this. The left is making an accusation, I'm asking for proof. Until you provide it, I'm not buying this even one little bit.
First off, I did not say you were making fun of the issue, I said some of you guys, go read the post at Protein Wisdom.
And as far as proof. How many times have post been made on your Blog and others without proof. Do I need to remind you of the famous CNS story on Proof of WMD's. I have a number of other examples I can pull up.
Lets just say belay the outrage until there is a definative answer. Who else would be distributing these posters... Kerry supporters?
Dont worry, I intend to stay on this one until it is proven one way or the other. And I did not comment, my title was just a bit of satire. But I have made up for it by updating the post, since some of you guys seem to want to make fun of an issue that to many of us, speaks to the heart of our democracy.
So if anyone on the right has proof that Shelia Cochran is a liar, then let's hear it."
Like I said in the post, innocent until proven guilty.
I have not claimed that the document is true. I am simply pointing it out as potentially disenfranchising to minority voters, which it is, regardless of who is responsible for it.
And if ONE black voter does not vote becuase of it, it has disernfranchised one voter. Why cant you understand why I would be concerned about it, just as you have been concerned about issues which may impact your candidate.
Actually Rob, you asked for proof and I provided it. While you have every right to air your opinion and disagree with this story, I think it's a low blow to continue placing the burden of proof on me when I told you who's making the claims and asked if you, or anybody else, could find out if she's a liar. Are there any instances in the past where she has misled the public? Seeing that she's respected enough as a community activist to be appointed to a panel setup by the Governor of Wisconsin, I say the burden of proof is now on your head.
And don't throw that "history of disenfranchisement" around. I could point to some old southern Dems say that the Democrats have a history of race baiting and segregation, but I'm not going to.
There is a very simple question to answer here. You are accusing the Republicans of trying to intimidate minority voters by posting a document with unknown origins. Please prove that this document had anything to do with Republicans.
That's all I'm asking, but all I'm getting back is a bunch of non-sense that is the equivalent of "you lie too so its ok."
And, for the record, I would believe your claims if you had photos of Rove and Cheney handing the flyers out. Lets not be silly.
Do you actually think the Bush supporters who released an intimidation flyer like this are going to come out and say, "Yup, we did it!"
Oh, I got it! Maybe the ACT volunteers should chase down the people handle out these flyers and beat the crap out of them until they admit who their working for! Of course, then we'll hear about violence against Republicans, and blah blah blah...
Please.
These flyers are an anonymous intimidation tactic against black voters, and the author's identity isn't meant to be known. We'll probably never find out who exactly released the flyers. But do you honestly think it was a Democrat? Or ACT? How can you sit there and tell me that the person or group responsibile for these flyers aren't Bush supporters? You keep on griping about how the flyer is so ridiculous that it can't be real, but it is. And there are eyewitness accounts saying that it's being handed on in black Milwaukee neighborhoods. So we've got proof that it's real, and we've got a well respect civil rights activist leading the charge against the flyers.
So please, don't tell me this isn't a hachet job from Bush supporters. And don't call me a child just because I've dug up the evidence you've all asked for, but choose to ignore it.
Dave: CNS story, sourced. The source was CNS. So that's where culpability goes if the story is faulty.
Tas: In the Milwaukee case, the flyer's origin is unknown. But to get around that, you seem to think repeating the bona fides of the woman who complained makes your case for you. But that the woman complained is not in question. It's who is responsible for creating and distributing what she's complaining about that is at issue here. And her record as a Civil Rights worker doesn't give her magical powers to divine that.
Which brings us back to the point both Rob and I are making: don't attribute this to Republicans without proof, because that's a serious charge. And the moronic, cartoonish content on the flyer leads me to believe that no organized Republican group is behind this. If they are, they should be condemned, as I said on my site.
Period.
http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4043&n=1
Just because Republicans have been the main perpetrators of voter fraud doesn't mean that Republicans MUST have been behind this -- but it makes it very likely, in fact, so likely that the burden of proof is on the Republicans to prove that they DIDN'T do it.
This is the logic: you don't know for sure if the sun is coming up tomorrow. You can't prove it (you probably could, but it would be very very difficult). It may rise in the West, who knows. However, given the Sun's history, it would be pretty ridiculous to claim that it isn't going to rise in the east tomorrow morning.
Before you get hot and bothered, it is not my intention to argue that the probability of the sun rising in the east is equal to the probability that Republicans are trying to disenfranchise voters -- that wasn't my point. I wanted to show you why Republicans don't deserve the benefit of the doubt in this case because they have a long history of fraud.
You are correct that people are innocent until proven guilty -- in a court of law. By neccessity, the standards in the court of public opinion need to be much lower. That doesn't mean that any charge should be considered true by default but some charges are more credible than others based on the historical context.
Let's play a game. Given these charges, how credible in they are in the "court of public opinion?" What kind of evidence would you need to make the charge stick or at least keep you from being embarrassed by repeating it?
The charges
<ul><li>
John Kerry rapes goats -- not very plausible, but could theoretically be true! Not really worth investigating.snap judgment: not credible</li>
<li>John Kerry thinks Bush has an IQ of 75 -- kinda out there, but Kerry does seem kind of like an elitist snap judgment: doesn't seem very credible, a "smoking gun" like an audiotape or something similarly damning would be needed to give this legs.</li>
<li>John Kerry is having an affair -- given that almost 50% of men are unfaithful to their wives at some time, this is pretty plausible off the bat snap judgment: it wouldn't surprise me if it was true -- who in Congress hasn't had an affair? Find the mistress or other evidence and you're in business. Otherwise, probably not prudent to assume this is true.</li>
<li>Republicans are using dirty tactics to keep voters from showing up in a swing state -- well, given that it is happening in nevada, ohio, florida and god knows where else, milwaukee makes sense snap judgment: this story is "dog bites man". if the dems planted it, that would be "man bites dog." it's up to the republicans to prove "man bites dog" in this case</li></ul>
"It's naive to assume the Blacks aren't responsible for this, considering their history of sytemic and widespread embrace of X.
Just because blacks have been the main perpetrators of doesn't mean that blacks MUST be behind this -- but it makes it very likely, in fact, so likely that the burden of proof is on blacks to prove they DIDN'T do it."
Let the howling begin.
You've got nothing. You've got a woman in Milwaukee, who is affiliated with an organizaton responsible for some pretty nasty political hijinks this election season, claiming to have found the flyer. No eye-witnesses have come forward claiming that they were given the flyer or even saw anyone giving out the flyer.
I'm sorry, but I am not about to accept this story as true until we get more evidence. When and if we do I will gladly retract my opinions. But I don't think that's going to happen and you all know it.
Man, talk about a straw man argument! Perhaps some remedial reading comprehension courses are in order for you.
You're telling me that you wouldn't be suspicious of that were the DNC to do the same thing?
Give me a break.
Next patsy equivocation of democratic gotv with republican voter fraud please.
I don't blame the GOP as an organization, but certainly some asshole Southern racist group is responsible. However, the RNC has never acknowledged and denounced this sort of bullshit, for obvious reasons (it's GOOD for them as long as there is plausible deniability), and that -- to me -- is just as bad.
The same principle applies to gerrymandering Congressional districts to concentrate white power, and creating felon purge-rolls that are wildly inaccurate, or setting up roadblocks to polling places, or having people dress up as police officers to hang out at polling places.
Anyone who defends these actions, or denies that they occur, should be ashamed of themselves.
Wrong. You're simply ignoring the proof.
Pull my coat tail and tell me what Republicans have done for us, I am going to run out and Blog it.
Tas,
On one line you say no one knows who did it, on the next you blame Bush supporters. If it is so obvious that Bush supporters did this, then don't you think they would have thought about how obvious it would appear, and then not do it?
For some reason blacks seem to support Democrats, when history clearly shows that the Republican party has done more to empower blacks than Democrats have.
The question about a flyer like this is, who benefits? If it achieves its intended purpose, which is obviously to intimidate certain people and keep them from voting, who benefits? Where was it distributed? To whom was it directed? And which candidate are the recipients of this flier more likely to vote for?
Whoever did it, I think we can all agree that it's disgusting and outrageous.
Whomever is to blame for this, the lawyers now have Fodder... even if it turns out to be a Democrat supporter... Or Kerry himself... the fodder can now be used to claim disenfranchisement.
I seriously doubt that we will ever "really" know who did this... but it wouldn't surprise me to learn it was a lawyer...
Um, dude. . .
Go to Google, and type in "Occam's Razor."
Apply results to current situation.
Discuss.
DA
Okay, besides abolishing slavery, enabling blacks and women to vote, and passing most equality laws, nothing much I guess.
But really, it's not so much what they have done for you as what they haven't done against you.
One of the best things about America is the principle that "All men "(meaning humans)" are created equal." The atmosphere of America is one of individual ambition achieves success. Black Democrat leaders, such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, hurt our country by giving people the rhetoric that continues to feed racism. Can any of you sit in your chair and, being TOTALLY HONEST with yourselves, say that if provided the chance, right now, to go back in time and relive your childhood, you would not have done things that would have made you a millionaire by your current age? Invest in Stocks? Learn about certain fields that seemed to be on the verge of a boon? Study more in school? Not get involved in drugs? We have all had this opportunity, we (who are middle class like me) just didn't know enough to do anything with it. We are all given the opportunity to achieve great things as soon as we are born in this country. What we do with this opportunity is done with EACH CHOICE WE MAKE. Everyday, we make choices that affect the rest of our lives. Believing that someone holds you back is a choice, in this country. Believing that you are held back is self defeating. You loose the will to improve yourself when you can blame it on another.
I grew up in New Hampshire. I can honestly say that I never heard a truly racist thing come from anyone while I grew up. I heard ethnic jokes, but they were about all ethnicities. Today I firmly believe that all humans are equal in being. They are not all equal in individualism.
I am not clueless. I do understand that there are some people who would reject another simply because they have a different skin color, but to blame that person for your losses diminishes yourself, reduces your self worth in your minds eye, and that self worth is translated into how you respect others, and ultimately how well you will do in society.
I live in Florida today, it's hard not to notice that the majority of the people wanting handouts appear to be black. And the largest group of those supporting these handouts appear to be black. Take reparations, for instance. I started my adult life in the US with almost nothing. I had some clothes, a car that I lived in, and that was about it. I found a job! I learned a skill! Before age 20, I was educated to an AVERAGE level. When I became an adult, I left my fathers home with nothing. I was given nothing. The car I had, I bought, the clothes I bought. Do I deserve reparations too? Every black today is at least a generation removed from slavery. With the right education from birth, from your parents, not school, would allow you, regardless of race, to succeed. Thinking that you need a handout because of your race is self racism.
I know the statistics that say that there are more black prisoners than white. I know this isn't PC, but couldn't it just be the case that more crime is committed by blacks than whites? It's not about skin color though, it's the mind set instilled in each of us by our parents.
In the last presidential election, a representative of the DNC was videotaped buying votes, and there were solid reports of repeat voting. The District Attorney refused to even investigate. This time around, he and other city officials are ignoring massive irregularities in the vote generation activities of the "non-partisan" operations bankrolled by an international currency speculator. One of these operations is run by a woman who stepped down from elected office to end inquiries into how she had been elected. Our DA has, however, said that he will prosecute anyone who tests the registration process by making false representation with the intent of exposing potential fraud. This is, please note, a solidly Democrat city administration.
Also note that there is a strong, semi-anonymous, drive in the inner city to lead my neighbors to believe that they need to show up the infamous "them" who are trying to suppress their vote. This bogus flyer may well have been printed by the same people who put a card under my door which begins "They tried to stop us from voting with dogs and fire hoses..." in an attempt to suggest that "they" are still at it.
I'd rather not clutter up the posts to this comment with an off-topic discussion.
Innocent until proven guilty is the rule in a court of criminal law—but that's not where we are. We've individual citizens expressing our views on the likely provenance of this flyer. While we should all try to be as fair as possible, we do not need to hold ourselves to the evidentiary standards of a criminal proceeding.
Given other news about Republican malfeasance regarding vote suppression, I think a fair and reasonable standard of proof for this matter should be this: if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck (note the right column in particular), I'm entitled to treat it like a duck—or in this case, another attempt by the Republicans at preventing people from voting.
While you give the correct definition of a straw man argument, the claim that the flyer is a product of the Republican party—if you want to attack it on form rather than substance—might be an example of a conclusion that does not follow from its premises, i.e., a non sequitur, even though the claim is plausible given other facts not in dispute. On the other hand, a straw man argument, to make the definition you've given more precise, is one where you impute to your opponent a position they do not in fact hold, and then attack that position. For example, suppose Smith believes that bloggers who make claims that aren't supported by the links they include—for example, claiming a link to a an organization that mentions a smear tactic is therefore itself the author of said smear tactic—are either stupid or dishonest. If Jones were then to say that Smith is an enemy of free speech and go on to enumerate the vices of opposing free speech, then Jones would have constructed a straw man. Smith's position that sloppy bloggers are either stupid or dishonest is therefore not refuted.
Anyone who reads that "flyer" down to the last couple of knee-slapping howlers and actually takes it seriously is either a boob or hopes the people s/he is promoting this to are boobs.
violate these laws and lose your children????
Yeah. Sure. Uh huh.
Now, just what group of people feel that African-Americans are so stupid that only the nobless oblige of the obviously superior white man allows them to get along in American society at all? Which group of people feel that melanin content dictates political affiliation and any that stray off the plantation are "inauthentic?"
Which group of people have most to gain by taking the focus off the documented physical assaults, vandalism and even shootings of their political opponents ...
I'm certainly reminded of this little leftist hoax
And let's not forget the wonderful new spin on Orwell speak from CBS's own failed attempt at electioneering "fake but accurate."
Tas, David et al... you're worthy of helping OJ in his hunt for the "real killers."
Is that how you are explaining the NAACP letter and the other documents that have come out in recent days as well. Along with the phone calls to Democratic registered senior citizen voters directing them to the wrong polling place?
I think with my gonads. Maybe that explains my success in life. And lets see you are a middle class soccer mom who plans to vote for bush and that makes you an expert on law. Please, go away and let the big boys discuss this. I was standing at the feet of my parents fighting this kind of thing in Southern VA and North Carolina before you were born.
And if you guys choose to put your head in the sand and say, there is no way my leaders would do something like this, that is your perogative, but we will FIGHT, and we will win.
We have already won some battles in Ohio where Republican Dirty tricks tried to get some legitimate voters kicked off the rolls, and we will win this one too. and you really need to read the facts before engaging in debate, it was NOT ONE flyer, and this has not been the only example of this type of ploy.
To be honest, I dont know why I am even discussing this with you people, you have your own version of reality that NOTHING is going to change. I would hazzard to guess that even if someone had been arressted handing out the fliers, you would deny it and say he was a Democratic plant.
Please don't go into law. You think with your gonads instead of your brain.
A flyer turns up in the hands of ONE person, purportedly being "distributed" by persons unknown in "minority" neighborhoods.
SURE, a police officer would come out and take a report, they have to do that. But any sargent with a lick of sense would take one look at the flyer and would know better to even bother the local DA with such a smelly piece of offal.
Nice try. Vanna has some parting gifts for you ...
DrDeath (chimp) had a world record amount of death penalty cases . Death fried 150, the last was a mentally retarded fella with the mind of a six years old. Now with him running the country he's killed how many in civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq? One hundred thousand would be a conservative estimate.
They have a special room in Hell waiting on DrDeath. He will die screaming - the same as those he's put to death.
Among the people to be sentenced to death in Texas by a jury of their peers while Bush was Governor of Texas was two of the three perpetrators of the pickup truck lynching. Are you calling for a commutation of their sentences?
That one hundred thousand is not a conservative estimate, it is the mid-range of a SWAG based on misapplied statistical expansion of a non-typical sample. It could also be no more than eight thousand.
IF it were legal, rather.
And some say women are the ones to get hysterical.
And OH! I'm so cut to the quick by the label "soccer mom." Heaven's, you're so right... at the hospital while giving birth, us women are required to give up our brains and our rights to have any political thought or engage in debate.
Having a bit of trouble dealing with a woman, David? Hmmmm... I wonder if this is one of the reasons the Left is so enamored of the jihadists.
Sweetcheeks, I work in the judicial arena. Don't try and teach your grandma to suck eggs.
Kes
If California's Prop 66 is passed, can I send these guys to be your neighbors? I mean, seeing as you have such sympathy for poor oppressed criminals and all ...
This conversation reminds me of Republicans trying to say that Bush never said "Mission Accomplished" when he made a speech from the deck of an aircraft carrier last May where there was a huge banner behin him that said, in very bold letters, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED." But since he never said the very words that were behind him, larger than life, Republicans have sought to say that Democrats are lying about the president.
In short, this argument is getting just as stupid. It's getting to the point where the only evidence you'll believe is a rubber stamped confession from George W. Bush himself saying that somebody who didn't want Kerry elected handed out these flyers.
Well guess what? History is against you. The evidence I've presented, that you continue to ignore, is against you. And speaking of evidence, you haven't even a shred that Democrats could be behind this flyer. Furthermore, there is no logical reason for Democrats to make such a flyer because all of their organized efforts in swing states have been geared owards getting out the votes for Kerry, not surpressing them. Besides, it's not like we need another "Republicans surpressing the vote" story to spread, because your side has already given us plenty of those, including some that can be traced directly back to the RNC headquarters.
As for history, I may not be black, but I do know that blacks regularly receive tougher sentences than white people for the same crimes. And due to racial profiling, they are targetted more often. Therefore, more black people find themselves behind bars for BS reasons, and then the Republicans seek to take away their right to vote after they've done they're time. Make no mistake: All it were legal for all blacks to vote, Republicans would have much, much less power in this country. And don't you think for a second that black people don't know this, and relate Republicans constant pushing of "tough on crime" measures as surpressing the power of their community. And blacks have constantly been targeted by hate and intimidation campaigns to surpress their electoral power, some of which could never be directly chased back to the GOP but -- Surprise! -- Guess who it just happens to benefit?
And you know as well as I do that the point of an intimidation tactic, such as this flyer, is to be anonymous. It's a threat. It's saying, "If you don't fall into line, we'll come and get you."
So by saying that we cannot imply that Republicans are responsbile for distributing this flyer is silly, and it shows that you either have an ignorance of history, or you're just blatantly ignoring it for the purposes of furthering your arguments, probably because you have no actual evidence to back up your arguments. What we do know is the flyer exists, there are eyewitnesses who can verify that it's being distributed in black nighborhoods, there's a very well respected community leader leading the charge against it, and the Republican party just happens to have a history of surpressing the black vote.
The burden of proof isn't on us, Rob. It's on you.
Actualy I am not too concerned about it one way or the other, becuase all this is doing in firing us up. And that gumby in the white house will be gone in a few days.
But that seems to be a common conservative tactic these days, deflect debate by changing the subject. You have zero credibility in addressing this issue Darleen, and what does work in the legal arena mean? Is that like a janitor calling themselves a sanitorial engineer? You should know Darleen that I am not one of those liberals that go running at the sight and sound of Republican soundbites. You want to make a logic based argument as to why we should not believe that this document is the work of... at best a GOP supporter and at worst operatives within the GOP, go ahead, you want to keep making arguments about whose "gonads," are the biggest, you will lose...
I'm not your "sister" so do try to stop channeling Han Solo in an effort prove your masculine street creds.
You and others are making a charge that the flyer (A) is not a parody (B) has been distributed by Republicans
The first is opinion, the second has not one shred of direct evidence to support it. No one has identified the mysterious GOP operative that has allegedly distributed whole big bunches of these things .. or maybe it was one of those Rovian Black Helicopters dropping it by the bushelfull during a new moon and using his powerful mindbeams to wipe out the memory of any helicopters in the area..
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Re 3 strikes... I wasn't changing the subject ... I know this might be a tad difficult but try and keep up.. you might have seen I was addressing Kes, who was doing a typical Leftist "I love perps, screw the victims they're dead anyway" dance.
David, when you get around to some direct evidence..you know that thing that DA's need before filing charges .. about this icky-poo "Republican" flyer ... be sure and let me know, eh?
Until then my co-workers at the District Attorney's office are going to get such a guffaw or two about this latest (akin to CBS Memogate) scam.
Unless you produce the person who distributed the flyer or the person who created it, you have no direct evidence.
And since you made the charge, it is up to you to prove it.
That's the way the law works. David doesn't buy it, and maybe you don't either.
You could come here and say you have an actual dollar the tooth fairy left under your pillow, but without direct evidence... like tiny tooth fairy fingerprints or dna on the dollar, it is not up to the rest of us to disprove your allegations.
I'm really sucking on the keyboard tonight.
As I've said before, history and the evidence is on our side. The burden of proof is on your shoulders now.
This isn't about DAs, this is about a flyer meant to surpress the black vote being distributed in black communities, and the part the benefits just happens to have a long and deep history of surpressing black voters.
History and the evidence are on our side, and it's your side that now has the burden of proof upon you.
And I'm really, really trying to be nice here. Because I don't want to say what I honestly think about people who are this ignorant of history.
"Mountains of evidence?" Sorry, boys ... not only have you not presented any direct evidence in this case, but when it comes to the so called "who benefits" the "convenient discovery" swings the benefits right back at the Dems. Kind of like the "hate crime hoax" I linked to earlier.
You have opinion and conjecture only, and it holds up as well as a 1972 memo typed on MSWord.
Do your communities a favor and duck jury duty.
This "prove it" game is too easy to play. It has no rules.
Everybody lives on a set of beliefs. No one can prove God exists either - but it sure changes the reality on the ground.
If the insults were a bit more witty, it might actually be funny. But that's OK. It's just another flame party in a blog's comment area.
Too bad we can't all get together. We could have a barbeque and then play charades or whatever.
I'll bring beer!
Before you go, there is still this little issue about Republicans being the mean nasty hate-monger-ers.
Do tell, what Democrats have done for any minority besides implement methods to keep them there?
Or, you could yell "Racist" again, and ignore the question.
At no point in this discussion did you show that this flyer was the work of Republicans. You want to believe that it was Republicans, because you begin your thought process on the premise that all Republicans HATE non-white people. So, of course, it has got to be the nasty Republicans, because everything they do is to keep the little guy on their backs. All they want is oil. George Bush built a time machine and killed off all of the Dinosaurs so he could get the oil in 2004. The Republicans are for Global warming. They want to destroy our world. Genocide is to small a project for the Republicans, they won't stop until the Sun explodes.
Past all of the speculation, is it possible that Republicans are a group of people that identify with the ideals of the individual? Could it be that Republicans adhere to a deeper sense of individual accomplishment and accountability?
Please, do tell me why it is that you feel "Republicans" are the oppressors.
There are individuals in every group, right?
Democrat groups are made up of individuals, right?
Republican groups are made up of individuals, right?
The difference is, Democrats want what is best for the GROUP. Republicans want what is best for the individual.
When your focus is on the Group, some individuals suffer. When your focus is on the individual, everyone benefits. When you focus on groups, some in the group can be lazy. When you focus on the individual, everyone is held accountable.
No, I do not think that all republicans are incorruptible. No human is. But, if your focus is on individuals, it is harder to think in terms of exploitation. Exploiting a group is easy. When your in a group, it's easier to blame others. When you count on individuals, you have an easier time blaming yourself.
Au Contraire' - Comair the Candidates