Good decision. I was surprised you let it go on as long as you did. You've shown a great deal of restraint dealing with those with whom reasonable and respectful disagreement seem impossible because they are neither reasonable nor respectful themselves.
Perhaps Gary will comfort himself with the thought that you can't stand dissent or that he was winning. Feh. He can believe what he likes--and start his own blog! But someone who presumes ignorance, incompetence, and bad faith without allowing for the possibility of honest disagreement is poisonous to a discussion.
Cheers for making him find some other outlet elsewhere to spew his unpleasantness, and good luck in not rising to the bait when the next Gary Gunnels comes down the pike.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
You should seriously reconsider.
Bear in mind, I regard libertarians--like Gary--with about as much disdain as I bear for the Repugs. But many of his arguments were well-constructed and well-argued, if misguided.
The fact is Gary was rhetorically kicking your butt and you didn't like it.
As for name-calling and disrespect, I notice you don't seem to have much of a problem with it when Likwud, Seth Y. and Marty engage in it. In fact, most of Likwud's comments would be completely devoid of any content if you removed the name-calling.
It's your blog and your rules. But if discussion is truly your aim as opposed to an amen chorus, you have to apply the rules equally.
Rob
· 4 years ago
When he told me to go take a flying fuck, that was over the line.
I don't have to put up with stuff like that.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Really Jadegold? Threats?
The comments have perma links. Please link to any such threat. In fact, please link to any commenter who has told another to fuck off and gotten away with it.
I'll wait.
And my beef with Gary was that he was trolling (post three or four comments straight in each post) and acting like a condescending ass.
Frankly, I don't have to deal with it.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Yeah, Rob, you can make the rules and enforce them however selectively as you choose.
Was Gary 'over the line?'
No way.
Rob
· 4 years ago
I am applying the rules evenly, Jadegold. The fact that you are still here is testament to my desire to avoid having an "amen chorus" for a comment section.
But Gary was over the line. He was insulting and condescending. As you said, this is my house and my rules.
But you are right about the insults coming from some of the people side. I will do better in the future to make sure that all comments are more polite.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Again, you'll see that kind of language out of your conservative bretheren all the time on this site.
I've even been the target of threats of violence on this site.
If you want such behavior to stop, you apply the standard across the board.
IMO, your beef with Gary was he had backed you into a corner and you didn't much care for it.
richard
· 4 years ago
Rob,
Just a personal note, why couldn't you just ignore him when it started to get out of hand. Persoanlly it makes my skin crawl all of this banning and censoring that we have going on in this country. I find it scary that when people get offended these days the first reaction is to shut the other person down.
Would you find it insulting if somebody called you obseqious? How about coward or going the other way hero?
Just my 2 cents.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Rob: WRT to the threats, I'm a big boy and I realize the source of the threats would wet himself in my presence.
please link to any commenter who has told another to fuck off and gotten away with it.
I fear this will turn into another case where you'll claim someone didn't use the words "f%ck off" and instead used words like "a@@hole" or "dipsh*t" or "sh%t for brains" and the like.
Dave
· 4 years ago
Jadegold, I don't think either Rob or I is arguing for lockstep agreement. It's possible to have people disagree with your arguments, and remain civil while doing so.
I really have no idea what Rob aspires to, so I can't comment there.
Dispatches From the Culture Wars has a fascinating discussion of this issue, in the context of a commenter he banned.
Finally, if I'm "technically correct" as you say, then what's the argument here? Rob can do as he pleases, whether we like it or not. Echo chambers are not illegal, and if Rob wants one, those uninterested in such an experience will go elsewhere.
The blogosphere is too widespread for one echo chamber to have much of an effect, let alone crush dissent.
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
I really don't know how I feel about this... On one hand, I think Gary was a pompous ass, with too much of a chip on his shoulder to listen to any side other than his. On the other hand, others on this site have engaged in the same sort of behavior too, including myself.
In all fairness, he did not tell you to take a "flying fuck". He told your "threats" to do so.
Piss off. After your behavior directly above, I don’t give a flying fuck about your petty threats.
On the other hand, he clearly was not using any common sense during that thread, but does that in itself warren banning? Honestly, I think Mr. Bowen's tirade with Gary over my post "Well I Never..." was handled better by Gary than by Mr. Bowen, even though I agree with Mr. Bowen on the issue, Gary was cooler and more collected in the discussion.
That said, both Gary and JadeGold seem to pick fights for no reason other than to pick fights. They take a stance on issues that seem so petty and pointless that the only purpose, I can surmise, is to annoy the host into an aneurism. They have differences of opinion, which is FINE. But to continue holding the opinion so adamantly once it is clear that there is not going to be a sway in opinion only leads to hateful name calling and dissent.
I try to think of myself as a principled person... Part of that is knowing when I am wrong and stating so... Neither JadeGold nor Gary would ever do such a thing... it is beneath them.
So, I don't know where I stand on this... But I do have a great deal of respect for the way Rob runs his blog, and for his cool temper... That remains unchanged at this time.
Dave
· 4 years ago
"Crushing dissent"?
Rob, this is your blog, a private endeavor. It is protected by the First Amendment, but it is not compelled by the First Amendment to allow anyone to comment on it.
Anyone who claims you are "crushing dissent" by prohibiting people from commenting on your site is arguing that privately run organizations such as your blog are not allowed to require its participants to adhere to a modicum of behavior. There is a pretty well established principle in constitutional law that speech protections do not extend to private organizations; no commenter on this blog should expect that you are not within your rights to comment.
To be condescending, anyone who believes you are "crushing dissent" need only start their own blog. "Crushing dissent" is something government does; you are not that powerful, no matter what your detractors say.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Dave: You make the technically correct argument; however, why have comments if all you expect is lockstep agreement?
Why not just turn off comments altogether and assume everyone agrees with you?
That's all you need for an echo chamber. And if an echo chamber is what you want--why blog at all? Why not just stand up a big link to rnc.org and be done with it?
I would hope Rob aspires to something better.
JG
· 4 years ago
Andrew: I'm unfailingly polite to those who act likewise. OTOH, I'm certainly not one to turn the other cheek when I'm treated badly.
Rob
· 4 years ago
The point of all this is not whether or not I want my comment section to be an "amen chorus." Clearly that is not what I want otherwise other commenters like Jadegold and Don Meyers would have been gone a long time ago.
What I want is a comment section that's focused on debate, not shouting down the opposition. Gary's rapid-fire comments, over-the-top condescension and insults didn't further that goal. When I asked him to tone it down (as I've asked other commenters to do in the past, a request that was always previously met with cooperation) he told me to fuck off.
So he got banned. And, frankly, I'm not sorry about it. For a little while after I banned him I thought about letthing him back, but then he started emailing me calling me a liar and worse.
This site is getting more and more popular. To be honest with you, I'm struggling to find the time to not only write new posts but also to keep up with all the comments. To put it mildly, I just don't have the time, nor the patience, to put up with someone like Gary.
Andrew
· 4 years ago
Is Andrew proposing a time out for mean people
I guess that's one way of looking at it. Gary was crossing the line, but if he can show that he can respect Rob and Say Anything, then maybe he should be let back after a certain period of time.
Andrew
· 4 years ago
Not to be off topic, but has anyone else noticed that Jadegold has gotten a lot more polite than he used to be? Maybe Gary's insults over-shadowed his. Or maybe its the fact that Likwid and Jade haven't argued with eachother in quite some time.
Anyway, I hope this blog can go back to being civil (that includes everyone). And maybe you could let Gary back after a period of time if he gives you an apology and a promise to tone down the harsh words.
richard
· 4 years ago
I have to say that in my short time here Jade has always been polite to me.
SNOTTY but in no way mean.
richard
· 4 years ago
Is Andrew proposing a time out for mean people
Andrew
· 4 years ago
Yea, I enjoy Seth's posts. A lot of them are pretty amusing. I really like to ones he does about space exploration and technology (I think he's the one who's into that stuff).
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Andrew: No particular reason other than my sloth.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Yes, those are Seth's posts Andrew. My "off-topic" posts usually consist of monster trucks and babes in bikinis.
Seth's much more high-brow than I am.
In light of some of the comments in this thread...maybe a "babe of the day" post would be prudent.
MikeAdamson
· 4 years ago
One problem with banning is the inevitable appearance of threads debating why so and so wasn't banned when the other guy was. It's Rob's room and,as my grandmother always said, it doesn't pay to be rude but this does lay the groundwork for future silliness.
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
Added note- I do get burnt on politics from time to time, but NEVER tire of seeing the female form!!! (I hope I don't have to qualify this)
Andrew
· 4 years ago
Maybe we need to lighten the mood around here a bit more.
Good idea! We need more pictures of scantily clad women. I think that's something most of us can agree on.
...and maybe a joke of the day.
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
heh heh heh... yes, VERY High Brow ;) LOL
Thanks Guys !!! I do try!
Andrew
· 4 years ago
Andrew: I’m unfailingly polite to those who act likewise. OTOH, I’m certainly not one to turn the other cheek when I’m treated badly.
I'll accept that. I've only seen you be rude to me on one occasion. The "war" with likwid on the other hand I'm not sure about. I don't know who started it but I do know that likwid isn't an angel all the time either.
I've just noticed recently that you haven't insulted people as much, which might be due to the fact that I haven't seen you being insulted as much either.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Andrew: No particular reason other than my sloth.
Oh, here I thought it had to do with the spam problems.
My bad.
MikeAdamson
· 4 years ago
I support the proposal for including scantily clad women becuase my politics are nothing if not politics of inclusion.
Rob
· 4 years ago
I think the switch came when my spam filter was freaking out earlier this week. There were a bunch of legit comments blocked and I was out of town. Likwid was doing his best to keep things going, but it was pretty bad.
Anyway, I think Jadegold switched his posting name to get around the problem, which should be fixed now. At least I haven't seen any other legit comments get blocked.
Andrew
· 4 years ago
P.S. What's with switching from Jadegold to JG all the time? At first I thought you were two different people.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Seth seems to be doing pretty good with that. Did you see his "S.H.I.T." post?
Rob
· 4 years ago
I think its very hard for all of us to keep our tempers when we discuss some of these things. I just hate it when someone starts to treat you like dirt just because you don't hold the same view point as them. That's wrong, but we all do it. Some more than others, of course.
We need to remember that, in most cases, the person you're talking to through your computer is probably a decent enough human being. There's no reason to treat them like scum just because you don't like what they're saying. In fact, if you treat them respectfully you'll more than likley find them much more receptive to your thoughts.
Maybe we need to lighten the mood around here a bit more.
Rob
· 4 years ago
You've about got me convinced Jadegold. I'll think about it tonight.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Jadegold,
I thought about it, but I asked him tone it down in the comments and he refused. He then sent me several nasty emails after the fact. I think Gary is more interested in fights than debate.
If he were to apologize I would, but not before then.
TCF,
Who would that be?
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
Amen!! Ban Jadegold too ;)
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Heat of the moment, Seth.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
You should invite Gary back.
thatcoloredfella
· 4 years ago
Rob,
I know you've tolerated my incessant snarking, however if you're to judge all of your comment posters by such measures, there is one such lout who's bile has been far more egregious than what I've read from Gary!
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
If he can't be civil in E-Mail... what's the point... Then again... Why ban ANYONE??? What's the criteria?
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Be a bigger man, Rob; bury the hatchet.
Gary was probably PO'd and said things he didn't mean. Just let him back in--it'll be cool.
Tell you what, I'll pick on him for being a libertarian. It'll be fun.
Eh, I'd still advise against it, Rob. What are you going to do--put him on probation? Keep monitoring him as a special case?
Look, he's obviously old enough to have done his homework on lots of things, so he's old enough to learn how to have a respectful conversation by now. The fact that he acts as he does suggests that the leopard may not change his spots so easily.
Gary's actions crossed the line from being a debate to being an asshole, no doubt about it. I think banning him temporarily is a great idea. When people act childishly sometimes they do need a time out just like a little kid.
I'd recommend letting him back in after a period of time if he gives Rob an honest apology for the unnecessarily mean things he said in the comments and the things that he said in his subsequent e-mails.
Bruce T.
· 4 years ago
Screw bringing him back. That guy was a fucking asshole. Let him go play at democraticunderground with the other moonbats.
2Hotel9
· 4 years ago
He personally attacked you, several times. You attempted to be even handed, and a cordial host. He repeatedly displayed zero respect for you, in your house. I agree with Gary on several issues, national ID being one, and none of us are blushing virgins, we all can be quite nasty at times.
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
heh heh heh, he said "buzz kill"... heh heh
Yeah, yeah... heh heh... cool...
Marty
· 4 years ago
I personally never banned anyone from my (now defunct) blog as a matter of principle. That said, i never had such supreme assholes as GG and JG(you're next buddy ;) constantly ruining any chance of an intelligent debate. It's one thing for a name-calling know-it-all troll (dontcha just love the irony!) to drop by and make things interesting every so often, it's another for them to make the place no fun anymore. Even the roughest of biker bars still have bouncers...
Hey Gary, get your own blog -- they're free at www.blogger.com you know.
Like i said, were this my blog, i probably would not have banned him. But i don't blame you in the least. He's a major buzz-kill.
Mark
· 4 years ago
It's Rob's blog, so to be frank he can ban anyone he likes, regardless of what they say, polite or otherwise. Even if they were just saying hello!
Now I personally don't think Gary's original comments (the use of the f-word, et cetera) were strong enough to merit a ban. I've certainly seen worse.
On the other hand, Gary's subsequent behaviour (apparently sending rude e-mails after the event) leads me to believe that a ban was, perhaps, justified.
Of course, if Gary does apologise, or at least act a little conciliatory, then it is quite proper that he should be re-admitted.
But again, that's just my opinion.
Mark J
· 4 years ago
Meh... it's Rob's decision. He decided to be open and disclose his decision, which is more than he owes anyone. I have a comment policy on my site, but it is meant to serve as a warning to would be ad-hominem-attackophiles and not as some sort of restriction on me, the owner of the site.
likwidshoe
· 4 years ago
Andrew said, "Not to be off topic, but has anyone else noticed that Jadegold has gotten a lot more polite than he used to be? Maybe Gary's insults over-shadowed his. Or maybe its the fact that Likwid and Jade haven't argued with eachother in quite some time."
All Comments
Perhaps Gary will comfort himself with the thought that you can't stand dissent or that he was winning. Feh. He can believe what he likes--and start his own blog! But someone who presumes ignorance, incompetence, and bad faith without allowing for the possibility of honest disagreement is poisonous to a discussion.
Cheers for making him find some other outlet elsewhere to spew his unpleasantness, and good luck in not rising to the bait when the next Gary Gunnels comes down the pike.
Bear in mind, I regard libertarians--like Gary--with about as much disdain as I bear for the Repugs. But many of his arguments were well-constructed and well-argued, if misguided.
The fact is Gary was rhetorically kicking your butt and you didn't like it.
As for name-calling and disrespect, I notice you don't seem to have much of a problem with it when Likwud, Seth Y. and Marty engage in it. In fact, most of Likwud's comments would be completely devoid of any content if you removed the name-calling.
It's your blog and your rules. But if discussion is truly your aim as opposed to an amen chorus, you have to apply the rules equally.
I don't have to put up with stuff like that.
The comments have perma links. Please link to any such threat. In fact, please link to any commenter who has told another to fuck off and gotten away with it.
I'll wait.
And my beef with Gary was that he was trolling (post three or four comments straight in each post) and acting like a condescending ass.
Frankly, I don't have to deal with it.
Was Gary 'over the line?'
No way.
But Gary was over the line. He was insulting and condescending. As you said, this is my house and my rules.
But you are right about the insults coming from some of the people side. I will do better in the future to make sure that all comments are more polite.
I've even been the target of threats of violence on this site.
If you want such behavior to stop, you apply the standard across the board.
IMO, your beef with Gary was he had backed you into a corner and you didn't much care for it.
Just a personal note, why couldn't you just ignore him when it started to get out of hand. Persoanlly it makes my skin crawl all of this banning and censoring that we have going on in this country. I find it scary that when people get offended these days the first reaction is to shut the other person down.
Would you find it insulting if somebody called you obseqious? How about coward or going the other way hero?
Just my 2 cents.
please link to any commenter who has told another to fuck off and gotten away with it.
I fear this will turn into another case where you'll claim someone didn't use the words "f%ck off" and instead used words like "a@@hole" or "dipsh*t" or "sh%t for brains" and the like.
I really have no idea what Rob aspires to, so I can't comment there.
Dispatches From the Culture Wars has a fascinating discussion of this issue, in the context of a commenter he banned.
Finally, if I'm "technically correct" as you say, then what's the argument here? Rob can do as he pleases, whether we like it or not. Echo chambers are not illegal, and if Rob wants one, those uninterested in such an experience will go elsewhere.
The blogosphere is too widespread for one echo chamber to have much of an effect, let alone crush dissent.
In all fairness, he did not tell you to take a "flying fuck". He told your "threats" to do so.
On the other hand, he clearly was not using any common sense during that thread, but does that in itself warren banning? Honestly, I think Mr. Bowen's tirade with Gary over my post "Well I Never..." was handled better by Gary than by Mr. Bowen, even though I agree with Mr. Bowen on the issue, Gary was cooler and more collected in the discussion.
That said, both Gary and JadeGold seem to pick fights for no reason other than to pick fights. They take a stance on issues that seem so petty and pointless that the only purpose, I can surmise, is to annoy the host into an aneurism. They have differences of opinion, which is FINE. But to continue holding the opinion so adamantly once it is clear that there is not going to be a sway in opinion only leads to hateful name calling and dissent.
I try to think of myself as a principled person... Part of that is knowing when I am wrong and stating so... Neither JadeGold nor Gary would ever do such a thing... it is beneath them.
So, I don't know where I stand on this... But I do have a great deal of respect for the way Rob runs his blog, and for his cool temper... That remains unchanged at this time.
Rob, this is your blog, a private endeavor. It is protected by the First Amendment, but it is not compelled by the First Amendment to allow anyone to comment on it.
Anyone who claims you are "crushing dissent" by prohibiting people from commenting on your site is arguing that privately run organizations such as your blog are not allowed to require its participants to adhere to a modicum of behavior. There is a pretty well established principle in constitutional law that speech protections do not extend to private organizations; no commenter on this blog should expect that you are not within your rights to comment.
To be condescending, anyone who believes you are "crushing dissent" need only start their own blog. "Crushing dissent" is something government does; you are not that powerful, no matter what your detractors say.
Why not just turn off comments altogether and assume everyone agrees with you?
That's all you need for an echo chamber. And if an echo chamber is what you want--why blog at all? Why not just stand up a big link to rnc.org and be done with it?
I would hope Rob aspires to something better.
What I want is a comment section that's focused on debate, not shouting down the opposition. Gary's rapid-fire comments, over-the-top condescension and insults didn't further that goal. When I asked him to tone it down (as I've asked other commenters to do in the past, a request that was always previously met with cooperation) he told me to fuck off.
So he got banned. And, frankly, I'm not sorry about it. For a little while after I banned him I thought about letthing him back, but then he started emailing me calling me a liar and worse.
This site is getting more and more popular. To be honest with you, I'm struggling to find the time to not only write new posts but also to keep up with all the comments. To put it mildly, I just don't have the time, nor the patience, to put up with someone like Gary.
I guess that's one way of looking at it. Gary was crossing the line, but if he can show that he can respect Rob and Say Anything, then maybe he should be let back after a certain period of time.
Anyway, I hope this blog can go back to being civil (that includes everyone). And maybe you could let Gary back after a period of time if he gives you an apology and a promise to tone down the harsh words.
SNOTTY but in no way mean.
Seth's much more high-brow than I am.
In light of some of the comments in this thread...maybe a "babe of the day" post would be prudent.
Good idea! We need more pictures of scantily clad women. I think that's something most of us can agree on.
...and maybe a joke of the day.
Thanks Guys !!! I do try!
I'll accept that. I've only seen you be rude to me on one occasion. The "war" with likwid on the other hand I'm not sure about. I don't know who started it but I do know that likwid isn't an angel all the time either.
I've just noticed recently that you haven't insulted people as much, which might be due to the fact that I haven't seen you being insulted as much either.
Oh, here I thought it had to do with the spam problems.
My bad.
Anyway, I think Jadegold switched his posting name to get around the problem, which should be fixed now. At least I haven't seen any other legit comments get blocked.
We need to remember that, in most cases, the person you're talking to through your computer is probably a decent enough human being. There's no reason to treat them like scum just because you don't like what they're saying. In fact, if you treat them respectfully you'll more than likley find them much more receptive to your thoughts.
Maybe we need to lighten the mood around here a bit more.
I thought about it, but I asked him tone it down in the comments and he refused. He then sent me several nasty emails after the fact. I think Gary is more interested in fights than debate.
If he were to apologize I would, but not before then.
TCF,
Who would that be?
I know you've tolerated my incessant snarking, however if you're to judge all of your comment posters by such measures, there is one such lout who's bile has been far more egregious than what I've read from Gary!
Gary was probably PO'd and said things he didn't mean. Just let him back in--it'll be cool.
Tell you what, I'll pick on him for being a libertarian. It'll be fun.
Look, he's obviously old enough to have done his homework on lots of things, so he's old enough to learn how to have a respectful conversation by now. The fact that he acts as he does suggests that the leopard may not change his spots so easily.
You might consider this description, too.
Gary's actions crossed the line from being a debate to being an asshole, no doubt about it. I think banning him temporarily is a great idea. When people act childishly sometimes they do need a time out just like a little kid.
I'd recommend letting him back in after a period of time if he gives Rob an honest apology for the unnecessarily mean things he said in the comments and the things that he said in his subsequent e-mails.
Yeah, yeah... heh heh... cool...
Hey Gary, get your own blog -- they're free at www.blogger.com you know.
Like i said, were this my blog, i probably would not have banned him. But i don't blame you in the least. He's a major buzz-kill.
Now I personally don't think Gary's original comments (the use of the f-word, et cetera) were strong enough to merit a ban. I've certainly seen worse.
On the other hand, Gary's subsequent behaviour (apparently sending rude e-mails after the event) leads me to believe that a ban was, perhaps, justified.
Of course, if Gary does apologise, or at least act a little conciliatory, then it is quite proper that he should be re-admitted.
But again, that's just my opinion.
No, I didn't notice that.