DISQUS

cashin · 4 years ago

Holy shit good post. Being in college now all I ever hear is bitching and moaning. Not only that but my girlfriend is going into teaching and 2 of my aunts are elementary teachers. You could only imagine the gripes I hear about ND and their teachers pay.

Rob · 4 years ago

Comparison to other states may be important if the quality teachers are leaving for those other states.

Well, that may be a valid point worth exploring, but I'm not sure how much of an issue it is given the number of people looking for teaching jobs in North Dakota. I can't speak for other states, but we hardly have a shortage.

And one would hope that teachers (of all people) would understand that moving from one state to another based on nothing other than a ranking of salaries is rather foolish. Just because you make more in California doesn't mean that you're actually going to make more. Especially when things like housing, groceries, consumer products and certain types of insurance cost more.

nobrainer · 4 years ago

Comparison to other states may be important if the quality teachers are leaving for those other states. Otherwise you're right on.

Thatedeguy · 4 years ago

First things first, Rob, this is an excellent post.

Secondly, while I think it is probably true that some of the "better" teachers do leave for "greener" pastures, there are still quite a few of them that were born and raised here that choose to stay.

Lastly, I hadn't ever thought to compare the numbers the way that you did, kudos for smart thinking.

Terry · 4 years ago

So what is the quit rate?

If it is grater than 5%(an imputed 20-year stay)or even 10%, then compensation levels are probably about right. Don't include death, disbility and retirement, just quits.

When you see a quit rate down around 2% or 3%, you know you provide the absolute best opportunity. Much over 10% and you may become uncompetitive.

People with options may well leave for better positions, but the issue is average compensation. Try pay for performance.

The required snarky remark has to mention winter in North Dakota, but teachers spend it in warm classrooms with coal stoves and cornhusks and such.

Nice post.

Steve L. · 4 years ago

My wife is a teacher and I provide technical support for a school district, so I can speak to some of this. First, it should be remembered that teachers are paid for 9 months of work as compared to you or I who have to work 12 months to earn our pay. That skews the numbers in the teachers' favor. For example, $36,000 at 9 months extrapolates to $48,000 at 12 months. Granted, most teachers live on their 9-month earnings, but they do have options.

Second, there is an increasing trend of people who enter teaching to "get the summer off." You hear it time and again. As you increase teacher pay, you attract some better quality candidates, but I believe you attract more of the "summer off" people. When teachers were not paid as well, they went into teaching as a calling. They believed in education and wanted to help mold children. Now, it' a job and they have a union to demand more pay and less work. Here in this district for example, teachers are required to be at school for 7 hours and 40 minutes from whatever time the principal tells them is the start of the work day. That includes 30 minutes for lunch (during which state laws says that they can have no duty) and a 40-50 minute preparation period. Effectively, they are required to teach for 6 to 6-1/2 hours a day. That allows 1-1/2 to 2 hours for grading each day. Trust me, no one uses that much every day. Cumulatively perhaps, but not daily.

Gene · 4 years ago

If my math holds up, 180 days a year, 8 hours a day (less than most teachers actually work per day) equals 1440 hours divided into $35,441

$24.50 per hour.

In North Dakota, not exactly a center of high paying jobs, that's pretty good pay.

Oh, they have to take work home at night. I have worked in white collar America most of my life, I take work home every night too. Oh, they have to attend School events. Those are called sales meetings on Saturdays and management retreats in the real world. Happens all the time.

They have to take "courses" to advance. Really? And no one else in industry does? HAH!

I have been in classrooms to keep up in the technology areas I have worked in most of my adult life at my OWN expense. I knew that if I were better prepared I would be paid better. I think that's how it works in education too.

SO, I have no pity. Teachers are well paid. Many are just plain lazy and whiners.

My wife works in the school system as a teacher's aide @ $10 an hour. This bunch of wimps would never make it in the real world. Those who can do, Those who can't teach and complain constantly.

Don Myers · 4 years ago

gene:

You know that math you used? You could do that because of teachers.

If you wanna be cheap and stingy with the people who give each generation the basic tools of civilization---math and reading skills, geography, etc---you go right ahead.

But don't come crying to me when your kid graduates from high school a functional illiterate, Mr. Cheapskate.

(Of course, the lower the reading skills the more likely they are to vote republican, so perhaps this is ling-range planning by the GOP)

Robert Perry · 4 years ago

It should be noted here that the correlation between school spending and student achievement is negative, and the most successful teachers are those (parochial schools, home educators) who are the lowest paid.

I don't support reducing teachers to serfdom, but the data simply do not bear out the claim that more spending results in better education.

John · 4 years ago

Don Said:

(Of course, the lower the reading skills the more likely they are to vote republican, so perhaps this is ling-range planning by the GOP)

I believe you mean the lower the reading skills of the state, the greater the ratio of Republican voters. Unless you are basing your statement on information of which I am not aware, this is as far as one can extend the data. To extend the information to mean the lower an individual's reading skills the higher the chance that an individual is Republican is fallacious. In fact, it is as nonsensical as taking data that says that states with the highest percentage of black people tend to vote Republican (South Carolina, Mississippi, Georgia, etc.) implies that black people are Republican at a disproportionaly high rate. As far as I can tell, this last case is untrue and the logic used to prove your case is flawed.

Also, as I've heard many Democrats use this very same flawed logic, I propose by means of inductive logic, that the lower the logic skills the more likely they are to vote Democrat.

Don Myers · 4 years ago

Care to back those claims up with some evidence, bob?

Don Myers · 4 years ago

john:

As far as I know there haven't been any studies on intelligence in individual voters, but since I'm not a professional sociologist I could be wrong.

So you are correct in pointed out the flaws in extrapolating from state-by-state surveys (while ignoring the strenghts thereof, of course).

But don't you think such a study be interesting and valuable.

Based on the behavior of the current regime---teaching Bible stories as science, avoiding reality at every turn, a disengaged president unwilling (unable?) to read books or even long memos---I'd be very interested in the results.

Wouldn't you?

Robert Perry · 4 years ago

First of all, Don, care to back up yours?

But since you ask:

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=78

http://edworkforce.house.gov/edwatch/edwatch2001/082801.pdf

http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=665

Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams have written quite a bit on this as well--look them up on Townhall.com or www.jewishworldreview.org.

And regarding the lower cost options, look up the issue at www.hslda.org. Home schooled children tend to score about 20 to 30 percentile points higher than those in the government schools, and data for parochial schools are similar. Money simply doesn't correlate to primary or secondary educational quality.

And if you want to talk about those who are functionally illiterate, may I remind this august forum about 20,000 Democrats in Florida in 2000 who didn't know how to vote? :^)

Actual data that come to mind, seriously speaking, suggest that you'll find more Democrats in "highly educated" and "poorly educated" classifications, and more Republicans among those with a high school diploma or bachelor's degree. Functional literacy among Republicans is thus probably somewhat higher than among Democrats.

Rob · 4 years ago

You know what's amazing? Every time somebody suggests that maybe we apply a little bit of logic and reasoning to expending tax dollars on something like education someone like Don comes along and accuses those in favor of said logic of being against education.

This is how we get stuck with 90% of government over-spending. Do you oppose increasing funding for welfare? Then you hate poor people, regardless of the logic of your reasoning. Do you oppose raising teacher pay? Then you're promoting stupid children. Do you oppose ag subsidies? Then you want people to starve.

I'm reminded of a quote from Frederic Bastiat:

Socialism, like the ancient idea from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.

John · 4 years ago

Don:

I see absolutely no value in extrapolating this set of data to individuals for the purposes of bashing Republicans. It simply goes against all my experiences to believe that smarter people tend to be Democrats. Also, though I've only lived in Michigan and California, neither the illiterate nor the uneducated masses tend to be Republicans. Further, at my university (one of the liberal hotbeds in California), the campus Republicans consistently outperform the campus Democrats in their regular debate series.

The only suitable explanation for the observable inconsistencies of reality versus your extrapolated data set is that factors unrelated to either intelligence or political leaning are overwhelmingly more important to the value of the other as to render the extrapolated data set utterly useless for whatever purposes I imagine you would have vested interest.

Also, the current regime has nothing to do with the Kansas Board of Education, one of your citations is pure rubbish, another is hearsay regarding hearsay, and the last is an opinion to which you have linked twice.

Finally, that you find legitimate case to suggest that this President is unable to read books is quite perplexing. I'd ask for any factual evidence you'd use to support this claim, but I have limited expectations of you. Also, I would be rather unwilling to read any sort of drivel that attempts to prove this claim.


This unwillingness to read is not due to my being Republican.

likwidshoe · 4 years ago

Rob said, You know what's amazing? Every time somebody suggests that maybe we apply a little bit of logic and reasoning to expending tax dollars on something like education someone like Don comes along and accuses those in favor of said logic of being against education.

He's got no argument, only empty insults.

Say Anything - North Dakota&#8 · 3 years ago

[...] North Dakota Democrats are still harping on that union press release article that rated ND at the bottom for teacher pay in the nation. [...]

Say Anything - North Dakota&#8 · 3 years ago

[...] As I’ve pointed out before, teachers in North Dakota make more on average than their fellow citizens while working fewer days and collecting better benefits. Further, teacher pay in other states is often a reflection of that state’s cost of living. North Dakota has a very low cost of living, yet people like Ahlin never take that into consideration when comparing teacher pay here to other states. [...]