The question is what will you say--a decade or two down the road--if the situation in the ME worsens?
What will you say if Iraq becomes another Iran?
Several possibilities:
1. Find a way to blame it on Clinton. Better yet, blame it on both Clinton and Carter.
2. Blame the 'liberal media.'
3. Proclaim a Shiite theocracy uniting Iran and Iraq is "freedom and democracy." Then find an obscure college professor from some no-name university and beat on him mercilessly for being 1/16 th Native American instaed of 1/8 th.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Boy, it really gets under your skin when something positive happens in the middle east doesn't it?
And FYI, Churchill is getting all this attention because he is a horrible man who lies and says atrocious things about his country and his fellow citizens. And he advocates for terrorism.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Boy, it really gets under your skin when something positive happens in the middle east doesn’t it?
The problem is nothing positive has happened, Rob. You cite an op/ed (and Ignatius is a good pundit) that cites an anecdote from one person and you're ready to declare success.
Well, I can cite anecdotes that aren't so heartening. And I can cite US officials who are very concerned the elections in Iraq are resulting in an outcome not all as we would like.
And FYI, Churchill is getting all this attention because he is a horrible man who lies and says atrocious things about his country and his fellow citizens. And he advocates for terrorism.
No, he doesn't advocate terrorism.
Moreover, this is just the conservatives looking for an excuse to say all colleges are hotbeds of treason and liberal extremism.
Rob, I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool liberal and I never heard of Ward Churchill. And I'll bet that outside of a few of his students and collegues--nobody else had either.
That's what this issue is all about--point scoring. Well, you folks bagged a really small fish.
It's interesting the rightwing doesn't go after these folks listed by my buddy, Dave Neiwert:
These are indeed heady and significant times, Rob. Oh, it could all go pear-shaped so quickly; the capacity of people to screw up good things is as high as it's ever been. But this feels much like 1989 in which both Tiananmen Square and the Berlin Wall were noteworthy. Maybe it could go either way, but I'm voting for the Berlin Wall route (in part because we have a continuity of leadership today we did not have in 1989.)
2Hotel9
· 4 years ago
slarrow, everything is pear and egg shaped. There is no perfection. The whole "perfection" argument is so much chaff, thrown out to confuse and bog down any real progress that might be made on any issue. It is very effective. It is one of the better tools used in the political arena. No actual argument is needed, all you need do is point out that something is not perfect, and then make suggestions as to how to achive "perfection". Pointless debate soon ensues! And don't think I am pointing a finger in any one direction. I stand, dead center, and merrily sling this mud at all parties concerned. This is a ploy used by everyone. This does not make it any less effective. You should check with JuniorGrade, it loves to use this device in all its varied forms.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Let's see; the Iraqis held an election that AWOL George didn't want. Despite over 200 attacks on election day, 58% of eligible Iraqis voters turned out to vote for candidates they did not know in an election process they did not understand.
In spite of the US's best efforts, the candidate favored by AWOL George came in third (dspite having incumbency). Iraqi Shiites closely aligned with Iran's secular Shiites came in first. In fact, the next leader of Iraq is very likely a man who heads a party dedicated to the creation of an Islamic Republic and spent his time in exile from Saddam as a guest of the Iranian Mullahs.
Meanwhile, the effort to train Iraqi security forces suffered yet another setback when it was discovered many police units are compromised by insurgents.
And the violence continues to grow in Iraq.
Yup. Perfection.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Meanwhile, while all that is going on, Saddam Hussein has remained in jail awaiting trial while the people he used to oppress have elected a government to their liking.
Point out the negative all you'd like, the truth is that progress has been made. History will vindicate Bush and this war.
Gary Gunnels
· 4 years ago
Jadegold is essentially right; your sample size is too small to make any conclusion either way.
Gary Gunnels
· 4 years ago
I think pro and anti-war people see what they want to see in Iraq. To be frank, we're at such a remove from what is going on over there that I believe it is nearly impossible to make a properly informed decision re: progress or lack thereof there. So I'll suspend judgment for ten years I think.
Anyway, since the die has already been cast, its not likely I do much about it anyway. Plus, I am far more concerned about the Republican and Democratic assaults on freedom in my own country to have time to be worried about the Iraqis.
Gary Gunnels
· 4 years ago
BTW, this goes along with my general rule that understand a place you have to go there or at least study intensely. There are some places - like France - that I know very well and love. Others not so much.
Peter
· 4 years ago
...one guy saying...
Peter
· 4 years ago
It's more than just one guys saying this stuff. Right or wrong there is major change going on over there. You can't really deny that Bush is getting his domino effect.
What still doesn't cease to amaze me is the wild-eyed TBism that both anti and pro-war people still have.
Gary Gunnels
· 4 years ago
Peter,
Sorry, your argument boils down to a claim of self-evidence. I don't give that much weight.
Re: Syria,
What is going on there is a culmination of issues and events stretching back to the start of normalization. Why people are so arrogant to presume that the rest of the world takes it cue from the U.S. I don't know.
Gary Gunnels
· 4 years ago
I suppose the other point re: Berlin Wall is that Poland largely collapsed COMECON and the Warsaw Pact by itself.
Gary Gunnels
· 4 years ago
BTW, Jamblatt has it backasswards. The tearing down of the Berlin Wall was the culmination of a decade of events starting with the rise of Solidarity in Poland. He seems to be referring to the start of something, not the end of it.
Rob
· 4 years ago
See Gary? I told you I wasn't blocking you.
Peter
· 4 years ago
Gary,
I was addressing your comment that "your sample size is too small to make any conclusion either way."
No, the world doesn't take all it's cues from the U.S. and I agree there are a lot of factors involved. But there is a reason that guy is saying "Tell America we are waiting for them to invade, all of us." Taking note of this stuff doesn't make somebody "ignorant".
Also Solidarity is mentioned in my post w/ regards to the Pope and Reagan. They both had a big part in keeping the movement alive and there is no doubt that Bush and some in his cabinet were influenced by that fact.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
And of course, he said those things two months ago. Before the Iraqi elections. Sure sounds like he's had a change of heart.
Jadegold
· 4 years ago
Rob approvingly quotes Walid Jumblatt.
Hmmmm.
Just two months ago, Jumblatt furnished this quote to a Saudi newspaper:
We are all happy when U.S. soldiers are killed [in Iraq] week in and week out. The killing of U.S. soldiers in Iraq is legitimate and obligatory.
All Comments
What will you say if Iraq becomes another Iran?
Several possibilities:
1. Find a way to blame it on Clinton. Better yet, blame it on both Clinton and Carter.
2. Blame the 'liberal media.'
3. Proclaim a Shiite theocracy uniting Iran and Iraq is "freedom and democracy." Then find an obscure college professor from some no-name university and beat on him mercilessly for being 1/16 th Native American instaed of 1/8 th.
And FYI, Churchill is getting all this attention because he is a horrible man who lies and says atrocious things about his country and his fellow citizens. And he advocates for terrorism.
The problem is nothing positive has happened, Rob. You cite an op/ed (and Ignatius is a good pundit) that cites an anecdote from one person and you're ready to declare success.
Well, I can cite anecdotes that aren't so heartening. And I can cite US officials who are very concerned the elections in Iraq are resulting in an outcome not all as we would like.
And FYI, Churchill is getting all this attention because he is a horrible man who lies and says atrocious things about his country and his fellow citizens. And he advocates for terrorism.
No, he doesn't advocate terrorism.
Moreover, this is just the conservatives looking for an excuse to say all colleges are hotbeds of treason and liberal extremism.
Rob, I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool liberal and I never heard of Ward Churchill. And I'll bet that outside of a few of his students and collegues--nobody else had either.
That's what this issue is all about--point scoring. Well, you folks bagged a really small fish.
It's interesting the rightwing doesn't go after these folks listed by my buddy, Dave Neiwert:
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/02/noxious-academics.html
In spite of the US's best efforts, the candidate favored by AWOL George came in third (dspite having incumbency). Iraqi Shiites closely aligned with Iran's secular Shiites came in first. In fact, the next leader of Iraq is very likely a man who heads a party dedicated to the creation of an Islamic Republic and spent his time in exile from Saddam as a guest of the Iranian Mullahs.
Meanwhile, the effort to train Iraqi security forces suffered yet another setback when it was discovered many police units are compromised by insurgents.
And the violence continues to grow in Iraq.
Yup. Perfection.
Point out the negative all you'd like, the truth is that progress has been made. History will vindicate Bush and this war.
Anyway, since the die has already been cast, its not likely I do much about it anyway. Plus, I am far more concerned about the Republican and Democratic assaults on freedom in my own country to have time to be worried about the Iraqis.
http://www.economicswithaface.com/weblog/archives/2005/02/dominos_part_2.html
Sorry, your argument boils down to a claim of self-evidence. I don't give that much weight.
Re: Syria,
What is going on there is a culmination of issues and events stretching back to the start of normalization. Why people are so arrogant to presume that the rest of the world takes it cue from the U.S. I don't know.
I was addressing your comment that "your sample size is too small to make any conclusion either way."
No, the world doesn't take all it's cues from the U.S. and I agree there are a lot of factors involved. But there is a reason that guy is saying "Tell America we are waiting for them to invade, all of us." Taking note of this stuff doesn't make somebody "ignorant".
Also Solidarity is mentioned in my post w/ regards to the Pope and Reagan. They both had a big part in keeping the movement alive and there is no doubt that Bush and some in his cabinet were influenced by that fact.
And of course, he said those things two months ago. Before the Iraqi elections. Sure sounds like he's had a change of heart.
Hmmmm.
Just two months ago, Jumblatt furnished this quote to a Saudi newspaper: