Coming soon: "Preliminary reports" of Israeli soldiers raping Lebanese girls and being said to have committed "cold-blooded murder" of Lebanese "civilians". Kofi really is a gem, isn't he?
Nik
· 3 years ago
Rob I undertand your angst here, BUT...
Keeping in mind the israeli army's history:
1) Attacking an US warship 20 years ago because they were observing israeli activities, then apologizing and saying they didn't know it was a US warship, very shady...
2) Bombing lebanese TV stations few days ago critical to hezbollah, not wanting any information at all to get out to the world
3) Denying international access to the Jenin refugee camps when they were "purging" those camps few years ago
AND the circumstances for this one unfortunate event:
1) the UN post had been there for over 20 years, israeli army knew about it
2) the UN personnel at that post continually were in communications with the israeli army up to hours before the bombing tell the army not to hit them
Rob it is very hard not to imagine a scenario where the army could have had alterior motives in hitting the post... but you do have to keep that possibility in mind given the israeli army's historical behavior as well as this specific case's points.
So no I don't think Kofi is a liar, given the current facts on the ground he's making a comment that could be true. And the israeli army's response has been very canned and cold, along the lines of "oh we'll investigate and get back to you", not satisfying at all. Israel's military capabilities and intelligence rates as tops in the world, I find it hard to believe that bombing a 20-year old UN outpost could be a pure accident. what do you think?
Nik
likwidshoe
· 3 years ago
Rob I undertand your angst here, BUT...
You're projecting Nik.
aNONOMISLY
· 3 years ago
WHERE's that picture of the Hezbullah flag next to a UNIFIL outpost when you need it?
Didn't Hezbullah once used a UN vehicle to surprise and kidnapp ~one Israili soldier?
din't the UN once taped Hezbullah in action yet kept it arms cross?
Doesn' the US government finance the plurality of the the UN's Budget?
Why did the UN allow Hizzbullah to construct a C&C bunker and ammo dump within 100 meters of their observation post? Well, nik, got a snappy answer for that? Perhaps in the form of a list? Lets hear it.
Sigivald
· 3 years ago
Well, an "appearance" is difficult to establish as a bald-faced lie.
Assuming Kofi wasn't listening to the CBC, it's simply reflective of his worldview that he'd believe it an "apparent" deliberate attack.
It's illuminating, and completely false, but I don't think it's a lie.
Nik
· 3 years ago
Hey TwoHotel9,
no snappy response or list here sorry...
UN is indeed ultimately a flawed organization, its powers and budget come from countries that often have opposing views and pull the rug out from under it; so in no way should any of us expect the UN to dictate whether hezbollah puts a bunket next to them. I just expected more from the israeli army who, as I said before, is one of the best trained/equiped/best intelligence in the world. Seems shady to me. I'm sure there was no hezbollah canoe next to that US warship years ago when an israeli fighter shot missiles at it ya?
Israel has had a history of "doing whatever it takes" to get what it needs done. And as an AMERICAN this concerns me because our tax dollars contribute billions of dollars in arms help to israel. if you are an AMERICAN surely you're not happy about having your tax dollars invested into killing UN officials.
Nik
aNONOMISLY
· 3 years ago
I said before, is one of the best trained/equiped/best intelligence in the world
I've been musing, trying to come up with a country whose Democracy is more reselient than that of Israel, which has only existed since 1948 and always in a precarious situation. I haven't come up with any other country.
I believe Israel to be the most resilient democracy this world has. This is particularly remarkable given the fact that Israel exist in an area not exactly known for great democracies, ..democracies of any kind, for that matter.
MikeAdamson
· 3 years ago
Now it turns out that this statement from Annan was a bald-faced lie.
What? I thought we were supposed to wait for the investigations to conclude before we make pronouncements. You're really confusing me.
robert108
· 3 years ago
Unlike Kofi Annan, I guess.
Bat One
· 3 years ago
Nik,
To be precise, the officials that were killed were not UN officials, but military personnel of 4 separate countries on loan to the UN. In other words, the "job" of UN peacekeeper, whatever that actually is, is outsourced.
The USS Lberty was attacked by the Israelis in 1967, and there is little question that the atack was knowing and deliberate. Admirals Bobby Inman and Thomas Moorer agreed with that conclusion, as did the Director of NSA and his two top Deputies. The reason for the attack has never been made public, although the Israelis tend to be both determined and focused about their national security.
On the other hand, the British burned the city of Washington, DC in August of 1814, also deliberately, and that fact does not seem to have muddled our relationship with them terribly.
Still, I don't see what the 1967 incident has to do with this current incident. It seems pretty clear that Hezbollah fighters were using the UN outpost in question as a shield, and that the Israelis were deliberately targeting not the UN personnel, but the Hezbollah terrorists. One just might think that the UN, being supposedly neutral, and tasked with keeping Hezbollah from doing exactly what the terrorist had been doing, would either do something about Hezbollah themselves, or acknowledge that they were helpless to do anything about Hezbollah and remove themselves from the scene. To simply sit there and, at a minimum, allow yourself to be used as a shield by the very fighters you are there to protect against, strikes me a pretty craven, no matter what country your from... or led by.
For all the good these blue helmets have actually accomplished (as elsewhere), the UN could have hired Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon to fill in. It would have been more honest, and probably cheaper, than pretending all these years that UN peacekeepers were actually accomplishing anything worthwhile.
likwidshoe
· 3 years ago
Nik said, Israel has had a history of "doing whatever it takes" to get what it needs done.
They do? How come I've been watching a lifetime of Israel suffer under petty little Muslim nats who throw rockets and suicide bombers at them? Israel could have taken care of many of these problems years ago, but didn't. They went the "diplomacy" route which ended up emboldening the terrorists.
Goodness, were you asleep during the Arafat years?
if you are an AMERICAN surely you're not happy about having your tax dollars invested into killing UN officials.
I'd say that it is a good use of tax money myself! Kill more of the untouchable elites I say!
TwoHotel9
· 3 years ago
niki, if you knew anything about the UN, Mid-east, or me, you would know how stupid what you typed here is. Get an education that does not consist of Marxist horseshit, then come talk to me.
Bat One
· 3 years ago
I thought we were supposed to wait for the investigations to conclude before we make pronouncements. You're really confusing me.
MikeA,
No doubt you intended this remark for Kofi Annan... correct?
Nik
· 3 years ago
Hey TwoHotel9,
sorry to pull the rug out from under you, but I am in fact middle eastern, spent some good time in the middle east lately, and have quite a few degrees thank you very much. I know people from tel aviv and love them, and know people from lebanon and love them too. So ya in fact I know as much if not probably more than you do about the middle east and the US's policies there.
AS someone with a US passport now, my loyalties lie with america. And it is quite painful to watch our government have one-sided foreign policy to the point of alienating the entire world. If you travelled outside the US you'd come face to face with a blatenly obvious fact: good guess that about 4 billion people on the planet right now have ill-will towards the US because of its policy towards the middle east. The more Israel alienates the world by its brash actions, the more the US will suffer. This policy of collective punishment that the US and Israel love to have is counterproductive don't you think?
Bat One hey whats up. the 1967 incident and the UN bombing to me do have one thing in common: israeli army has no bones about trying to hide its brash actions, even to the point of hurting its allies. Yes I agree that hezbollah was probably using the UN outpost as a shield, but I don't see that as an excuse to kill UN officials who are exposing israel's brash moves.
i would like nothing more for the killing to stop and israel live peacefully with its neighbors. hezbollah needs to be disbanded/put out of existence, but this is NOT the way to do it. israel is only creating more enemies for itself , and the US is being dragged along...
damn, sorry for the long response guys...
Nik
robert108
· 3 years ago
Nik: If foreign policy for the US was a popularity contest, then you might have something. It's not, and you don't. The only thing that matters is for us to win. Anything less is madness.
likwidshoe
· 3 years ago
Nik said, And it is quite painful to watch our government have one-sided foreign policy to the point of alienating the entire world.
A "one-sided foreign policy" must mean a U.S. foreign policy that is beneficial to the U.S.
The more Israel alienates the world by its brash actions, the more the US will suffer.
"Brash actions" must be any Israeli actions that respond to terrorism after they have been hit for years and years.
Yes I agree that hezbollah was probably using the UN outpost as a shield, but I don't see that as an excuse to kill UN officials who are exposing israel's brash moves.
In other words: fuck you Israel. We're going to position our people with the full knowledge that your enemies will use us as pawns. If you try to kill you enemy, we'll pull out a major double standard and blame you instead of the enemy positioning himself amoung civilians.
hezbollah needs to be disbanded/put out of existence, but this is NOT the way to do it.
I guess they should just send flowers to Hezbollah and ask to be left alone.
Bat One
· 3 years ago
Nik,
What a pity you weren't available here a couple months ago. A former commenter with an impressive stable of make-believe friends and acquaintances took a decidedly dim view of citizens with multiple "divided" loyalties. Your views are apparently a more moderate, reasonable version of some of her/his own so the dichotomy would have been amusing to witness.
Now, then,
Yes I agree that hezbollah was probably using the UN outpost as a shield, but I don't see that as an excuse to kill UN officials who are exposing Israel's brash moves.
I would like nothing more for the killing to stop and Israel live peacefully with its neighbors. hezbollah needs to be disbanded/put out of existence, but this is NOT the way to do it.
This fairly begs a couple questions, so here goes:
Why weren't the UN "observers" removed from the situation? Or, barring that, why did they not remove themselves? The Israelis gave several days of ample warning, precisely targeting the area all around the UN observation outpost. It would take a man of unprecedented arrogance and stupidity to seriously think that because there was a blue UN flag flying at that outpost (likely right next to the Hezbollah flag) that the Israelis wouldn't hit it. By all accounts, the UN personnel knew full well that they were being used as shields. So either Kofi and crew are some of the dumbest bipeds on the planet (certainly a possibility) or the most supremely arrogant.
For the Israelis to ignore their sworn enemy, clustered at that UN outpost would have been criminal irresponsibility of the highest order. IDF does not answer to the UN... nor should it. Nor should General Peter Pace or Scretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Which leads to the more important question (after all, those UN guys are still dead!) If you think that the Israelis are going about this all wrong, what is the better way to accomplish their objective? How would recommend that Israel idsarm and disband Hezbollah to that the terrorist organization no longer represents a threat to Israel... or to Lebanon?
Take all the time you need, Nik. It's gonna be a longish war anyway.
The Whistler
· 3 years ago
And it is quite painful to watch our government have one-sided foreign policy to the point of alienating the entire world. If you travelled outside the US you'd come face to face with a blatenly obvious fact: good guess that about 4 billion people on the planet right now have ill-will towards the US because of its policy towards the middle east.
They just don't like us because we're successful and they are not. The mid East thing is just the excuse of the day.
That that the same 4 billion wouldn't like to live here.
Nik
· 3 years ago
The only thing that matters is for us to win
I guess they should just send flowers to Hezbollah and ask to be left alone.
Guys we do need to win. I'll say it again, this is NOT the way to do it. And no flowers won't work, but being the poster-child for hezbollah to recruit more people isn't the way to do it either.
If you really want to take out Hezbollah, you don't bomb civilian infrastructure in lebanon. First you take out their legs by taking away their popular support, then you take out their blood by going after the regime in iran.
Israel and the US have either been unwilling to do this, or just really don't know how to do it. This is what will win it for us, NOT bombing civilian infrasture and leaving hezbollah with their moral/financial backing.
Robert108, unfortunately popularity does count. Having 4 billion people against you is not a good thing. That means our kids being in a world where the US is shunned and loses its global influence. Popularity for popularity's sake is bad, but popularity is certainly a means for us to exert our influence overseas easier. Example: after 9/11 the world was on our side and we really could do ANYTHING we wanted to , and heck we did we invaded two countries ! but now as you see the world is slowly turning against us and its harder and harder to protect our interests.
likwidshoe, I did not say to fuck israel. We need to support israel as long as their actions are of national interest to the US. Israel's actions are hurting the US right now bigtime; so no we don't abandon israel, we pressure them to do the right thing. Unfortunately, it seems that our administration hasn't figured what is the right thing...
thoughts?
likwidshoe
· 3 years ago
If you really want to take out Hezbollah, you don't bomb civilian infrastructure in lebanon. First you take out their legs by taking away their popular support, then you take out their blood by going after the regime in iran.
Would you have argued the same thing for taking out the Imperial Japanese in WW2? After all, they had major popular support and the leader was seen as someone who was infallible and sent from God.
Funny that we went after the "civilian infrastructure" of Japan in WW2 and somehow defeated the "popularly supported" Japanese government. Amazing, isn't it?
Israel and the US have either been unwilling to do this, or just really don't know how to do it. This is what will win it for us, NOT bombing civilian infrasture and leaving hezbollah with their moral/financial backing.
Yeah, you keep on repeating this point, but you fail to say how we could defeat Hezbollah without a war.
Example: after 9/11 the world was on our side...
No they weren't. The "world community" only loves an America that is on it's knees.
but now as you see the world is slowly turning against us and its harder and harder to protect our interests.
They were always against us.
likwidshoe, I did not say to fuck israel.
Basically you did. You don't condemn Hezbollah for targetting civilians and instead spend your time condemning Israel for responding to such attacks. In other words, a big "fuck you" to Israel and her interests.
Israel's actions are hurting the US right now bigtime...
How? They're taking out one of our enemies. Of course this angers people who didn't like us to begin with...
so no we don't abandon israel, we pressure them to do the right thing. Unfortunately, it seems that our administration hasn't figured what is the right thing...
More mumbo jumbo. What is "the right thing"? You speak of this "right thing" and yet you don't clarify just what this "right thing" is. It seems that you haven't figured out what you're even talking about.
The Whistler
· 3 years ago
If you really want to take out Hezbollah, you don't bomb civilian infrastructure in lebanon. First you take out their legs by taking away their popular support, then you take out their blood by going after the regime in iran.
Ah, send the lebenese flowers. What you don't get is that they hate the jews too. Getting the lebanese to like the Jews ain't going to happen. Welcome to reality.
You could go after the regime Iran. However the Israeli's don't have the muscle. We are a bit busy. The rest of the world is useless to say the least.
Israel and the US have either been unwilling to do this, or just really don't know how to do it. This is what will win it for us, NOT bombing civilian infrasture and leaving hezbollah with their moral/financial backing.
Maybe you could let them know a sure fire way to do this. The Muslims have been attacking the jews there for over 1400 years. Apparently you had the answer all along.
Example: after 9/11 the world was on our side and we really could do ANYTHING we wanted to
And when we did what was necessary (not what we wanted to do) the rest of the world put up roadblocks. Many of our so-called allies chose Saddam over the US. That tells us where they're coming from.
robert108
· 3 years ago
Nik: Some news for you. Our "influence" in the world is due to our economic and military might. Neither of them depend on any way on popularity. We are the market everyone wants to trade in, and that is a fact. If we don't buy their stuff, they are up crap creek.
Nkik
· 3 years ago
Hey guys !
Ok let me get one thing out of the way: I of all people know that hezbollah are a bunch of murderous thugs who have hijacked the fledgling democracy of lebanon and the lebanese people. Hezbollah's financial support (you know who I'm talking about) are a bunch of ideological vermin who through murder and oppression have also hijacked the people of iran.
Now then... One thing that keeps puzzling me is Israel's statements. Israel keeps saying that its true enemy is hezbollah and it has no bones with the government or people of lebanon. Israel keeps saying that hezbollah stronghold is in the south of lebanon, and it's common knowledge that beirut and northern lebanon are in fact full of christians and non-hezbollah types. In fact beirut and north lebanon represent everything that is anti-hezbollah in lebanon.
If Israel keeps saying these facts, then I completely agree with their military campaign in southern lebanon, but why the hell go after civilian infrastructure in beirut and northern lebanon? and no I don't bite on the argument of hezbollah's supply/support chain, just look at a map.
likwidshoe: your point of imperial japan is interesting, but keep in mind that every single japanese was 100% behind their emperor; the whole of japan believed in their "right" to do what they were doing. So the unfortunate targeting of civilian populations in Japan was horribly justified as every Japanese citizen was willing to die for their cause. In this case the elected lebanese government and most of the lebanese people should not and are not considered as supporters of Hezbollah. So big difference here, I don't agree with the similarity you're trying to draw here.
likwidshoe I'm also starting to really wonder about YOUR loyalties here, the US or israel? If israel then let me tell you your country's actions right now will hurt it in the long term. If the US please explain to me how israel's misguided response is helping the US?
aNONOMISLY brings up a good point in that israel is the only proven democracy in the middle east and yes I do applaud that, this is a good thing for the US. Then wouldn't you agree with me that having other democracies around israel would help the United States cause? Bush is a staunch supporter of the flegling democracy in lebanon and seems like its his little pet project. But right now Bush and even the rest of the world is saying that Israel's actions are putting that democracy in jeopardy. I wonder, why does Israel not want an arab democracy supported by the bush administartion right next door?
Hey likwidshoe let me elaborate on the "right thing" that you seem so blind on seeing. I hinted at it before, and its complicated but here the jist of it:
1) Take away Hezbollah's popular support - well there are those who truly want to wipe israel off the map and they are fanatics, but I can tell you thankfully they don't number that many. The majority of people who support hezbollah do it because of israel's mistreatment (real or perceived) of the palestinians and lebanese people. Like I said, I've lived in the middle east and this is the real world, people for the past 20 years have built up a hatred of the way israel oppresses the palestinian people. Now, from 1949 to 1997 it's estimated that the US has given about $1 trillion in taxpayer dollars to israel. If israel had invested even a fraction of that to truly supporting an civilian/economic infrastructure for the palestinians (and its neighbor lebanon), then imagine the difference; instead of spending money on dropping bombs, spend it on civilian infrastructure. Spoiling the palestinians with good quality of life is easy... Israel just hasn't done it, in fact israel has gone out of it way to treat the palestinians as 3rd class citizens and has always made sure that the palestinians have zero economic capabilities; and israel's continued military action against the lebanese CIVILIAN infrastructure has done the same in lebanon. Jeez, $1 trillion dollars !!! And its not too late for israel to start building palestinian's economic infrastructure. What I'm really impressed with israel also is its marketing capabilities; they can really show the world achievements they make. So if israel really starts using a fraction of the US taxpayer moneys towards making palestinians/lebanese lives better,TRUST me the main reason for ill will towards israel in the muslim world will subside. And Hezbollah will lose most of its popular support.
2) Take away hezbollah's financial support - no I don't mean go in militarily to iran. Far too long has the US's policy of non-engagment with iran failed miserably. The regime in iran is sly and witty and and thrives on the non-engagement. But at the end of the day they are very pragmatic. Trust me I know them, there are ways to get them to stop their financial suppport of hezbollah. And no its not the military way; anybody who thinks going in to iran with military please enlighten me how that would succeed. Dealing with Iran has nothing to do with muscle, and all to do with smarts. The brits are there and have some right ideas, the US just needs to start listening a bit. Whistler I agree with you that israel doesn't have the muscle to go after iran, that job I put squarely in the court of US and England, Israel should not be short-changed with that one.
You do these two things (take away popular and financial support), and hezbollah is dead in the water. Yes this will take time, and in fact I'm dumbfounded why israel and the US haven't started before. Follow these two points to their logical conclusions and you'll see hezbollah will become insignificant. And no docdave, I don't consider this pacifism or giving in to the terrorists, we just take away the reason and means for them to fight. A bit of carrot (diplomacy), a bit of stick. Right now there's been way too much stick for anyone's good. This is how you win against hezbollah.
Hey robert108 I agree with you that for the past 50 years the US's military and economic might has gotten us where we are today. But we're at a crossroads right now. Russia, India, and China's combined economic and military potentials are coming online, and watch out baby. United States population is only about 300 million, our global bying power is fast becoming a drop in the bucket and will become insignificant in the next 50 years; you really think the global economy in the next 50 years will be dictated by the US? I don't think so. Why do you think Bush is giving away civilian nuclear technology to china and indian, to stem the tide of their influence over energy needs; cause they do dwarf the US's needs and potential. Economic might? well the WTO talks collapsed couple week ago because of the US's inflexibility, and you can bet your ass countries will start going around the US and cutting us out of the loop. Popularity is another word for influence. As we lose popularity in the world, we lose influence. Oh and military might? well right now we're so overstretched and alone that you really think we can keep it up? the US military industrial complex is not the juggernaut that you think it is, and we should not be relying on it.
Whistler, I've lived overseas for a while, and let me tell you as you say that the world in fact loves american culture and freedom. Deep down when you really talk to them, they all aspire to the freedoms and culture that we have here. so no they don't hate americans and american lives. Sept 11 was dreadful, and it was an great opportunity for us as americans to really understand why there are people out there that want to do us harm (hint: its not our way of life or our values don't be brainwashed by fox news on this one),what they do have an issue with is our govenment's foreign policy, especially during the bush administration. Our government is viewed as the big bully on the block, and in some cases rightfully so. Oh and putting up roadblocks over the Saddam thing? are you serious? finally now we're seeing the folly and idiotic plan of going into iraq as we did. most of the world knew what a clusterfu*K it would be and they were warning us about it. Going after Saddam for the reasons we did and the way we did was completely wrong and overstretched us. We should have in fact listened more to our allies who were telling us the cold-hard truth, not putting up roadblocks for us. That's a discussion for another time.
Now about the jews being attacked "over there" for the past 1400 years as you say. Well yes I'll agree with you that the jews have been persecuted, history is a brutal reminder of that. But to me this one has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with how a country (israel) got itself into this predicament. After WWII the world decided to take away land from the arabs to give for the use of israel. bear with me... let's say that the world gave that land to the kurds, and over the past 50 years the kurds mistreated the palestinians and didn't get along with their neighbors, and kept bombing civilian infrastructure in lebanon. The kurds would likely be and be the linchpin of the arab world (just an example guys, don't get worked up over it). So no this is not a "jewish persecution" thing I don't agree with that. It has to do with a country being transplanted into the middle east and not having that transplant managed correctly. 90% of arab (and today world) negative reactive to israel is not because of israelies being jews, but because of what israel does as a nation.
Ok now, I've been getting asked all kinds of questions, now guys it's my turn. I understand and support israel's military action against hezbollah in southern lebanon, but for the life of me I can't find any logical reason for them to attack civilian infrastructure in northern lebanon and beirut. likwidshoe and aNONOMISLY I'm really interested in your viewpoints here, why the hell is israel bombing civilian infrastructure in northern lebanon and what does it hope to gain from it?
Nik
robert108
· 3 years ago
Nik: To answer you econ points: Until or unless China and India free their people like ours are, and I mean economically, personally, politically and religiously, they will hit the wall all socialist economies hit. Their lack of diffused(private) ownership and control of their capital will ultimately result in stagnation(like Japan), or at least decrease growth. It's not the numbers of people, but the individual productivity that matters, ultimately. We are still the best market for products, and we are still the greatest producer and innovator, and that is directly a result of our degree of freedom and individual independence. As a preview, China will hit the wall in two ways in the near future: Lack of homegrown management(of high quality), and their jiggering of their money. Sooner or later, the Chinese currency will have to go full into the world market, and the resulting "adjustment" will be a shock for them. The sacred law of supply and demand can't be f*cked with without serious consequences. Capice?
Nik
· 3 years ago
robert108 I like your analysis this is good.
I'm just very worried about the chinese. In the middle east chinese products and business people are infiltrating everywhere, and you know how western companies are sallivating to get into the chinese market they see as a sure bet. On the ground I'm seeing the shift slowly but surely. I just hope you're right and its not what I think it will be...
robert108
· 3 years ago
Nik: You have to look at the foundation upon which the present Chinese economy is built, and then compare it to the foundation of our economy. Our foundation is the individual citizen, fully empowered to make his or her own economic decisions, and to make decisions on how the money is spent, depending on that individual's demand for goods and services. The Chinese economy: what the Party bosses want. Even though they have created this phony overlay of "capitalism", it is built on a foundation of what is essentially slavery to a dictatorial regime, in which there is no personal, economic, religious or political freedom. Those freedoms are the secret of our success. Our citizens are free to move their resources to wherever they get the most return, and are now moving toward Chinese goods, because they are a good deal for the money. To maintain that income, the Chinese have to continue to deliver at that level, but if their population starts to become upwardly mobile, they will no longer be able to maintain that position in the market. Their position is static, not dynamic, and the free enterprise system is dynamic in nature. Their monetary system is also not reflective of the real value of their economy, and that bill will have to come due, sooner or later.
TwoHotel9
· 3 years ago
Static economies always wind up in the crapper. This is a lesson China knows, hence the flexibility they are attempting to implement. In the end their socialist template will either be scrapped or it will drag them into another Cultural Revolution. Which in turn will plunge them into a killing frenzy nightmare the likes of which humanity has never seen. Back to topic, Kofi Annan is a lying motherfucker, always has been and always will be. Period.
Nik
· 3 years ago
TwoHotel9,
Strong words, what's at the root of your hatred for him?
Do you ANY examples in the past where he's been a "motherfucking liar". I look forward to your list...
robert108
· 3 years ago
Nik: Oil For Food? That's just one.
TwoHotel9
· 3 years ago
His tenure in the UN is replete with examples, take a quick look at his involvement in Burundi,Ecuador,Fiji,Zai,,oh right,DR Congo,East Timor,Tajikistan,Uganda,Korea(north&south),Tibet,Lebanon,South Africa,Iraq, or Somalia. And don't forget Bosnia,Nepal,Ireland,Burm,,,oops,thats another one,Myanamar,Haiti, or Chechnia. And the Red Cross,Christian Childrens Fund,World Trade Organization,Red Crescent,Doctors Without Borders, et al. And yes, I personally hate and despise the United Nations.
Nik
· 3 years ago
ya OK so the UN isn't the perfect organization that it should be or aspires to be. But then again, as was hinted before, the body is made up of all its little parts. And boy do the little parts all have their own agendas and shortcomings. The UN has good intentions, but you're right implementing those intentions has had a lackluster track record.
I guess in that sense the UN is like the US and mirrors it. The US has long wanted to be the global leader in many things, both political and military. And although (most of the time) our intentions have been good, implementation has been shit and we suffer for it either in american lives or money (Iraq great example). So taking this leadership role certainly exposes the US and UN to mistakes and criticism.
But somebody's gotta be on the tip of that sword. its painful, but somebody's gotta do it (hopefully the right way). And I'm a big supported of diplomacy and talking. If at the very least the UN provides a venue for grievances to be put on the table then it serves its purpose. Paper tiger or not, even if people don't like to admit it, nations need the UN.
OK now what do you guys think about the (outdated) structure of the UN? does the post WWII security council member structure need to be changed or not?
Also, likwidshoe and aNONOMISLY I'm getting separation anxiety from you guys; if you're around let me know your thoughts on my question to you on my last rant/rave session
Nik
TwoHotel9
· 3 years ago
The UN is shit. It has always been shit. It will always be shit. Diplomacy and "talking" have gotten the world into the position it is in today, and both will make the situation worse. Please continue to kowtow to Kofi Annan and crawl on your knees begging the UN to "save" you from the people who daily vow to kill you and destroy your entire culture. Or perhaps you have embraced the other route? Bow down in submission to Islam, renounce your nation, religion, and family. Live out the rest of your life as a slave. The Mullah will feed you once a day, the Quran tells us to treat animals with mercy. And that is all a Dhimmi is, a domestic animal. You have the right to choose in America. Which way are you going?
TwoHotel9
· 3 years ago
And as to your question about IDF strikes against targets throughout Lebanon, Hizzbullah has Communication&Command facilities built as far north as Al Hirmil, they have supply&ammo caches scattered all through the eastern half of central Lebanon, mainly within 10 kilometers of the Syrian border. All legit military targets, all within close proximity to civilian population centers. All built under the direct observation of UNIFIL. And the IDF. The UN used its obsevational data to help Hizzbullah in its half-assed attempt to conceal these activities. The IDF is using their observational data to target these activities. Does that clear things up for you, Nik?
Nik
· 3 years ago
"the UN is shit"
wow that's funny, then can you explain to me why ALL parties right now, israel included, are going back to the UN in hopes of solving this conflict? Israel has finally realized that its brash over-responsed military action isn't going to get it what it really wants: LONG-term peace. Ya sure bomb lebanon for while and degrade hizbollah in the short term, but read between the lines and you'll see that even the israelis even its a short term solution that actually pisses off more people (remember 1 billion muslims in the world). And forget about israel, I'm pissed that israel's brash actions are hurting the US big time as I've said before.
Ya Ok I'll support military strikes against hizbollah MILITARY targets, I don't think anyone is denying you that. But damn the civilian infrastructure in lebanon has been reduced to shit and the whole world knows it, civilians that maybe barely supported hizbollah, but now support it even more because of israel's action; nice move israel, pissing off the rest of the world.
TwoHotel9, YOU need to wake up and smell the flowers on this one. "Diplomacy and talking" will in fact get Israel and the US out of this mess and everyone knows it, and everyone is banking on the UN as a medium to get us out of this mess, even Israel. I don't know maybe you're a fatalist and you actually do want WWIII to happen and judgement day to come. Cause let me tell you this thing can certainly escalate into that...
Nik
· 3 years ago
Oh and by the way the UN observational duties are just that: observational. they have no mandate to try to spot hezbollah. If anything, the UN observing hezbollah's activities sheds light on them for the IDF, and IDF certainly uses that information.
You seriously believe that the UN has HELPED hizbollah conceal its actions?? boy do you really need a reality pill... You can bet your dollar that the IDF knows intimately what goes on with the UN observers, so in fact anything the UN observers know the IDF knows, which again helps the IDF.
2Hotel9
· 3 years ago
Why are you still here talking to yourself? The UN is an abject failure, and always has been, and always will be. Please go masturbate else where. They like your stupidity over at DKos. Goodbye.
MikeAdamson
· 3 years ago
You say goodbye but do you really mean it? ;)
Nik
· 3 years ago
2Hotel9 that is such a typical response from you... loses the argument, cut&run. good ridance
MikeAdamson
· 3 years ago
Well...I wouldn't say Kofi lied but he certainly overstated the case. Israel has now accepted responsibility for the mistaken attack.
All Comments
Keeping in mind the israeli army's history:
1) Attacking an US warship 20 years ago because they were observing israeli activities, then apologizing and saying they didn't know it was a US warship, very shady...
2) Bombing lebanese TV stations few days ago critical to hezbollah, not wanting any information at all to get out to the world
3) Denying international access to the Jenin refugee camps when they were "purging" those camps few years ago
AND the circumstances for this one unfortunate event:
1) the UN post had been there for over 20 years, israeli army knew about it
2) the UN personnel at that post continually were in communications with the israeli army up to hours before the bombing tell the army not to hit them
Rob it is very hard not to imagine a scenario where the army could have had alterior motives in hitting the post... but you do have to keep that possibility in mind given the israeli army's historical behavior as well as this specific case's points.
So no I don't think Kofi is a liar, given the current facts on the ground he's making a comment that could be true. And the israeli army's response has been very canned and cold, along the lines of "oh we'll investigate and get back to you", not satisfying at all. Israel's military capabilities and intelligence rates as tops in the world, I find it hard to believe that bombing a 20-year old UN outpost could be a pure accident. what do you think?
Nik
You're projecting Nik.
Didn't Hezbullah once used a UN vehicle to surprise and kidnapp ~one Israili soldier?
din't the UN once taped Hezbullah in action yet kept it arms cross?
Doesn' the US government finance the plurality of the the UN's Budget?
Are we getting our money worth?
(the UN is extravagant with its spending)
Assuming Kofi wasn't listening to the CBC, it's simply reflective of his worldview that he'd believe it an "apparent" deliberate attack.
It's illuminating, and completely false, but I don't think it's a lie.
no snappy response or list here sorry...
UN is indeed ultimately a flawed organization, its powers and budget come from countries that often have opposing views and pull the rug out from under it; so in no way should any of us expect the UN to dictate whether hezbollah puts a bunket next to them. I just expected more from the israeli army who, as I said before, is one of the best trained/equiped/best intelligence in the world. Seems shady to me. I'm sure there was no hezbollah canoe next to that US warship years ago when an israeli fighter shot missiles at it ya?
Israel has had a history of "doing whatever it takes" to get what it needs done. And as an AMERICAN this concerns me because our tax dollars contribute billions of dollars in arms help to israel. if you are an AMERICAN surely you're not happy about having your tax dollars invested into killing UN officials.
Nik
I've been musing, trying to come up with a country whose Democracy is more reselient than that of Israel, which has only existed since 1948 and always in a precarious situation. I haven't come up with any other country.
I believe Israel to be the most resilient democracy this world has. This is particularly remarkable given the fact that Israel exist in an area not exactly known for great democracies, ..democracies of any kind, for that matter.
What? I thought we were supposed to wait for the investigations to conclude before we make pronouncements. You're really confusing me.
To be precise, the officials that were killed were not UN officials, but military personnel of 4 separate countries on loan to the UN. In other words, the "job" of UN peacekeeper, whatever that actually is, is outsourced.
The USS Lberty was attacked by the Israelis in 1967, and there is little question that the atack was knowing and deliberate. Admirals Bobby Inman and Thomas Moorer agreed with that conclusion, as did the Director of NSA and his two top Deputies. The reason for the attack has never been made public, although the Israelis tend to be both determined and focused about their national security.
On the other hand, the British burned the city of Washington, DC in August of 1814, also deliberately, and that fact does not seem to have muddled our relationship with them terribly.
Still, I don't see what the 1967 incident has to do with this current incident. It seems pretty clear that Hezbollah fighters were using the UN outpost in question as a shield, and that the Israelis were deliberately targeting not the UN personnel, but the Hezbollah terrorists. One just might think that the UN, being supposedly neutral, and tasked with keeping Hezbollah from doing exactly what the terrorist had been doing, would either do something about Hezbollah themselves, or acknowledge that they were helpless to do anything about Hezbollah and remove themselves from the scene. To simply sit there and, at a minimum, allow yourself to be used as a shield by the very fighters you are there to protect against, strikes me a pretty craven, no matter what country your from... or led by.
For all the good these blue helmets have actually accomplished (as elsewhere), the UN could have hired Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon to fill in. It would have been more honest, and probably cheaper, than pretending all these years that UN peacekeepers were actually accomplishing anything worthwhile.
They do? How come I've been watching a lifetime of Israel suffer under petty little Muslim nats who throw rockets and suicide bombers at them? Israel could have taken care of many of these problems years ago, but didn't. They went the "diplomacy" route which ended up emboldening the terrorists.
Goodness, were you asleep during the Arafat years?
if you are an AMERICAN surely you're not happy about having your tax dollars invested into killing UN officials.
I'd say that it is a good use of tax money myself! Kill more of the untouchable elites I say!
MikeA,
No doubt you intended this remark for Kofi Annan... correct?
sorry to pull the rug out from under you, but I am in fact middle eastern, spent some good time in the middle east lately, and have quite a few degrees thank you very much. I know people from tel aviv and love them, and know people from lebanon and love them too. So ya in fact I know as much if not probably more than you do about the middle east and the US's policies there.
AS someone with a US passport now, my loyalties lie with america. And it is quite painful to watch our government have one-sided foreign policy to the point of alienating the entire world. If you travelled outside the US you'd come face to face with a blatenly obvious fact: good guess that about 4 billion people on the planet right now have ill-will towards the US because of its policy towards the middle east. The more Israel alienates the world by its brash actions, the more the US will suffer. This policy of collective punishment that the US and Israel love to have is counterproductive don't you think?
Bat One hey whats up. the 1967 incident and the UN bombing to me do have one thing in common: israeli army has no bones about trying to hide its brash actions, even to the point of hurting its allies. Yes I agree that hezbollah was probably using the UN outpost as a shield, but I don't see that as an excuse to kill UN officials who are exposing israel's brash moves.
i would like nothing more for the killing to stop and israel live peacefully with its neighbors. hezbollah needs to be disbanded/put out of existence, but this is NOT the way to do it. israel is only creating more enemies for itself , and the US is being dragged along...
damn, sorry for the long response guys...
Nik
A "one-sided foreign policy" must mean a U.S. foreign policy that is beneficial to the U.S.
The more Israel alienates the world by its brash actions, the more the US will suffer.
"Brash actions" must be any Israeli actions that respond to terrorism after they have been hit for years and years.
Yes I agree that hezbollah was probably using the UN outpost as a shield, but I don't see that as an excuse to kill UN officials who are exposing israel's brash moves.
In other words: fuck you Israel. We're going to position our people with the full knowledge that your enemies will use us as pawns. If you try to kill you enemy, we'll pull out a major double standard and blame you instead of the enemy positioning himself amoung civilians.
hezbollah needs to be disbanded/put out of existence, but this is NOT the way to do it.
I guess they should just send flowers to Hezbollah and ask to be left alone.
What a pity you weren't available here a couple months ago. A former commenter with an impressive stable of make-believe friends and acquaintances took a decidedly dim view of citizens with multiple "divided" loyalties. Your views are apparently a more moderate, reasonable version of some of her/his own so the dichotomy would have been amusing to witness.
Now, then,
This fairly begs a couple questions, so here goes:
Why weren't the UN "observers" removed from the situation? Or, barring that, why did they not remove themselves? The Israelis gave several days of ample warning, precisely targeting the area all around the UN observation outpost. It would take a man of unprecedented arrogance and stupidity to seriously think that because there was a blue UN flag flying at that outpost (likely right next to the Hezbollah flag) that the Israelis wouldn't hit it. By all accounts, the UN personnel knew full well that they were being used as shields. So either Kofi and crew are some of the dumbest bipeds on the planet (certainly a possibility) or the most supremely arrogant.
For the Israelis to ignore their sworn enemy, clustered at that UN outpost would have been criminal irresponsibility of the highest order. IDF does not answer to the UN... nor should it. Nor should General Peter Pace or Scretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Which leads to the more important question (after all, those UN guys are still dead!) If you think that the Israelis are going about this all wrong, what is the better way to accomplish their objective? How would recommend that Israel idsarm and disband Hezbollah to that the terrorist organization no longer represents a threat to Israel... or to Lebanon?
Take all the time you need, Nik. It's gonna be a longish war anyway.
They just don't like us because we're successful and they are not. The mid East thing is just the excuse of the day.
That that the same 4 billion wouldn't like to live here.
I guess they should just send flowers to Hezbollah and ask to be left alone.
Guys we do need to win. I'll say it again, this is NOT the way to do it. And no flowers won't work, but being the poster-child for hezbollah to recruit more people isn't the way to do it either.
If you really want to take out Hezbollah, you don't bomb civilian infrastructure in lebanon. First you take out their legs by taking away their popular support, then you take out their blood by going after the regime in iran.
Israel and the US have either been unwilling to do this, or just really don't know how to do it. This is what will win it for us, NOT bombing civilian infrasture and leaving hezbollah with their moral/financial backing.
Robert108, unfortunately popularity does count. Having 4 billion people against you is not a good thing. That means our kids being in a world where the US is shunned and loses its global influence. Popularity for popularity's sake is bad, but popularity is certainly a means for us to exert our influence overseas easier. Example: after 9/11 the world was on our side and we really could do ANYTHING we wanted to , and heck we did we invaded two countries ! but now as you see the world is slowly turning against us and its harder and harder to protect our interests.
likwidshoe, I did not say to fuck israel. We need to support israel as long as their actions are of national interest to the US. Israel's actions are hurting the US right now bigtime; so no we don't abandon israel, we pressure them to do the right thing. Unfortunately, it seems that our administration hasn't figured what is the right thing...
thoughts?
Would you have argued the same thing for taking out the Imperial Japanese in WW2? After all, they had major popular support and the leader was seen as someone who was infallible and sent from God.
Funny that we went after the "civilian infrastructure" of Japan in WW2 and somehow defeated the "popularly supported" Japanese government. Amazing, isn't it?
Israel and the US have either been unwilling to do this, or just really don't know how to do it. This is what will win it for us, NOT bombing civilian infrasture and leaving hezbollah with their moral/financial backing.
Yeah, you keep on repeating this point, but you fail to say how we could defeat Hezbollah without a war.
Example: after 9/11 the world was on our side...
No they weren't. The "world community" only loves an America that is on it's knees.
but now as you see the world is slowly turning against us and its harder and harder to protect our interests.
They were always against us.
likwidshoe, I did not say to fuck israel.
Basically you did. You don't condemn Hezbollah for targetting civilians and instead spend your time condemning Israel for responding to such attacks. In other words, a big "fuck you" to Israel and her interests.
Israel's actions are hurting the US right now bigtime...
How? They're taking out one of our enemies. Of course this angers people who didn't like us to begin with...
so no we don't abandon israel, we pressure them to do the right thing. Unfortunately, it seems that our administration hasn't figured what is the right thing...
More mumbo jumbo. What is "the right thing"? You speak of this "right thing" and yet you don't clarify just what this "right thing" is. It seems that you haven't figured out what you're even talking about.
Ah, send the lebenese flowers. What you don't get is that they hate the jews too. Getting the lebanese to like the Jews ain't going to happen. Welcome to reality.
You could go after the regime Iran. However the Israeli's don't have the muscle. We are a bit busy. The rest of the world is useless to say the least.
Maybe you could let them know a sure fire way to do this. The Muslims have been attacking the jews there for over 1400 years. Apparently you had the answer all along.
And when we did what was necessary (not what we wanted to do) the rest of the world put up roadblocks. Many of our so-called allies chose Saddam over the US. That tells us where they're coming from.
Ok let me get one thing out of the way: I of all people know that hezbollah are a bunch of murderous thugs who have hijacked the fledgling democracy of lebanon and the lebanese people. Hezbollah's financial support (you know who I'm talking about) are a bunch of ideological vermin who through murder and oppression have also hijacked the people of iran.
Now then... One thing that keeps puzzling me is Israel's statements. Israel keeps saying that its true enemy is hezbollah and it has no bones with the government or people of lebanon. Israel keeps saying that hezbollah stronghold is in the south of lebanon, and it's common knowledge that beirut and northern lebanon are in fact full of christians and non-hezbollah types. In fact beirut and north lebanon represent everything that is anti-hezbollah in lebanon.
If Israel keeps saying these facts, then I completely agree with their military campaign in southern lebanon, but why the hell go after civilian infrastructure in beirut and northern lebanon? and no I don't bite on the argument of hezbollah's supply/support chain, just look at a map.
likwidshoe: your point of imperial japan is interesting, but keep in mind that every single japanese was 100% behind their emperor; the whole of japan believed in their "right" to do what they were doing. So the unfortunate targeting of civilian populations in Japan was horribly justified as every Japanese citizen was willing to die for their cause. In this case the elected lebanese government and most of the lebanese people should not and are not considered as supporters of Hezbollah. So big difference here, I don't agree with the similarity you're trying to draw here.
likwidshoe I'm also starting to really wonder about YOUR loyalties here, the US or israel? If israel then let me tell you your country's actions right now will hurt it in the long term. If the US please explain to me how israel's misguided response is helping the US?
aNONOMISLY brings up a good point in that israel is the only proven democracy in the middle east and yes I do applaud that, this is a good thing for the US. Then wouldn't you agree with me that having other democracies around israel would help the United States cause? Bush is a staunch supporter of the flegling democracy in lebanon and seems like its his little pet project. But right now Bush and even the rest of the world is saying that Israel's actions are putting that democracy in jeopardy. I wonder, why does Israel not want an arab democracy supported by the bush administartion right next door?
Hey likwidshoe let me elaborate on the "right thing" that you seem so blind on seeing. I hinted at it before, and its complicated but here the jist of it:
1) Take away Hezbollah's popular support - well there are those who truly want to wipe israel off the map and they are fanatics, but I can tell you thankfully they don't number that many. The majority of people who support hezbollah do it because of israel's mistreatment (real or perceived) of the palestinians and lebanese people. Like I said, I've lived in the middle east and this is the real world, people for the past 20 years have built up a hatred of the way israel oppresses the palestinian people. Now, from 1949 to 1997 it's estimated that the US has given about $1 trillion in taxpayer dollars to israel. If israel had invested even a fraction of that to truly supporting an civilian/economic infrastructure for the palestinians (and its neighbor lebanon), then imagine the difference; instead of spending money on dropping bombs, spend it on civilian infrastructure. Spoiling the palestinians with good quality of life is easy... Israel just hasn't done it, in fact israel has gone out of it way to treat the palestinians as 3rd class citizens and has always made sure that the palestinians have zero economic capabilities; and israel's continued military action against the lebanese CIVILIAN infrastructure has done the same in lebanon. Jeez, $1 trillion dollars !!! And its not too late for israel to start building palestinian's economic infrastructure. What I'm really impressed with israel also is its marketing capabilities; they can really show the world achievements they make. So if israel really starts using a fraction of the US taxpayer moneys towards making palestinians/lebanese lives better,TRUST me the main reason for ill will towards israel in the muslim world will subside. And Hezbollah will lose most of its popular support.
2) Take away hezbollah's financial support - no I don't mean go in militarily to iran. Far too long has the US's policy of non-engagment with iran failed miserably. The regime in iran is sly and witty and and thrives on the non-engagement. But at the end of the day they are very pragmatic. Trust me I know them, there are ways to get them to stop their financial suppport of hezbollah. And no its not the military way; anybody who thinks going in to iran with military please enlighten me how that would succeed. Dealing with Iran has nothing to do with muscle, and all to do with smarts. The brits are there and have some right ideas, the US just needs to start listening a bit. Whistler I agree with you that israel doesn't have the muscle to go after iran, that job I put squarely in the court of US and England, Israel should not be short-changed with that one.
You do these two things (take away popular and financial support), and hezbollah is dead in the water. Yes this will take time, and in fact I'm dumbfounded why israel and the US haven't started before. Follow these two points to their logical conclusions and you'll see hezbollah will become insignificant. And no docdave, I don't consider this pacifism or giving in to the terrorists, we just take away the reason and means for them to fight. A bit of carrot (diplomacy), a bit of stick. Right now there's been way too much stick for anyone's good. This is how you win against hezbollah.
Hey robert108 I agree with you that for the past 50 years the US's military and economic might has gotten us where we are today. But we're at a crossroads right now. Russia, India, and China's combined economic and military potentials are coming online, and watch out baby. United States population is only about 300 million, our global bying power is fast becoming a drop in the bucket and will become insignificant in the next 50 years; you really think the global economy in the next 50 years will be dictated by the US? I don't think so. Why do you think Bush is giving away civilian nuclear technology to china and indian, to stem the tide of their influence over energy needs; cause they do dwarf the US's needs and potential. Economic might? well the WTO talks collapsed couple week ago because of the US's inflexibility, and you can bet your ass countries will start going around the US and cutting us out of the loop. Popularity is another word for influence. As we lose popularity in the world, we lose influence. Oh and military might? well right now we're so overstretched and alone that you really think we can keep it up? the US military industrial complex is not the juggernaut that you think it is, and we should not be relying on it.
Whistler, I've lived overseas for a while, and let me tell you as you say that the world in fact loves american culture and freedom. Deep down when you really talk to them, they all aspire to the freedoms and culture that we have here. so no they don't hate americans and american lives. Sept 11 was dreadful, and it was an great opportunity for us as americans to really understand why there are people out there that want to do us harm (hint: its not our way of life or our values don't be brainwashed by fox news on this one),what they do have an issue with is our govenment's foreign policy, especially during the bush administration. Our government is viewed as the big bully on the block, and in some cases rightfully so. Oh and putting up roadblocks over the Saddam thing? are you serious? finally now we're seeing the folly and idiotic plan of going into iraq as we did. most of the world knew what a clusterfu*K it would be and they were warning us about it. Going after Saddam for the reasons we did and the way we did was completely wrong and overstretched us. We should have in fact listened more to our allies who were telling us the cold-hard truth, not putting up roadblocks for us. That's a discussion for another time.
Now about the jews being attacked "over there" for the past 1400 years as you say. Well yes I'll agree with you that the jews have been persecuted, history is a brutal reminder of that. But to me this one has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with how a country (israel) got itself into this predicament. After WWII the world decided to take away land from the arabs to give for the use of israel. bear with me... let's say that the world gave that land to the kurds, and over the past 50 years the kurds mistreated the palestinians and didn't get along with their neighbors, and kept bombing civilian infrastructure in lebanon. The kurds would likely be and be the linchpin of the arab world (just an example guys, don't get worked up over it). So no this is not a "jewish persecution" thing I don't agree with that. It has to do with a country being transplanted into the middle east and not having that transplant managed correctly. 90% of arab (and today world) negative reactive to israel is not because of israelies being jews, but because of what israel does as a nation.
Ok now, I've been getting asked all kinds of questions, now guys it's my turn. I understand and support israel's military action against hezbollah in southern lebanon, but for the life of me I can't find any logical reason for them to attack civilian infrastructure in northern lebanon and beirut. likwidshoe and aNONOMISLY I'm really interested in your viewpoints here, why the hell is israel bombing civilian infrastructure in northern lebanon and what does it hope to gain from it?
Nik
I'm just very worried about the chinese. In the middle east chinese products and business people are infiltrating everywhere, and you know how western companies are sallivating to get into the chinese market they see as a sure bet. On the ground I'm seeing the shift slowly but surely. I just hope you're right and its not what I think it will be...
Strong words, what's at the root of your hatred for him?
Do you ANY examples in the past where he's been a "motherfucking liar". I look forward to your list...
I guess in that sense the UN is like the US and mirrors it. The US has long wanted to be the global leader in many things, both political and military. And although (most of the time) our intentions have been good, implementation has been shit and we suffer for it either in american lives or money (Iraq great example). So taking this leadership role certainly exposes the US and UN to mistakes and criticism.
But somebody's gotta be on the tip of that sword. its painful, but somebody's gotta do it (hopefully the right way). And I'm a big supported of diplomacy and talking. If at the very least the UN provides a venue for grievances to be put on the table then it serves its purpose. Paper tiger or not, even if people don't like to admit it, nations need the UN.
OK now what do you guys think about the (outdated) structure of the UN? does the post WWII security council member structure need to be changed or not?
Also, likwidshoe and aNONOMISLY I'm getting separation anxiety from you guys; if you're around let me know your thoughts on my question to you on my last rant/rave session
Nik
wow that's funny, then can you explain to me why ALL parties right now, israel included, are going back to the UN in hopes of solving this conflict? Israel has finally realized that its brash over-responsed military action isn't going to get it what it really wants: LONG-term peace. Ya sure bomb lebanon for while and degrade hizbollah in the short term, but read between the lines and you'll see that even the israelis even its a short term solution that actually pisses off more people (remember 1 billion muslims in the world). And forget about israel, I'm pissed that israel's brash actions are hurting the US big time as I've said before.
Ya Ok I'll support military strikes against hizbollah MILITARY targets, I don't think anyone is denying you that. But damn the civilian infrastructure in lebanon has been reduced to shit and the whole world knows it, civilians that maybe barely supported hizbollah, but now support it even more because of israel's action; nice move israel, pissing off the rest of the world.
TwoHotel9, YOU need to wake up and smell the flowers on this one. "Diplomacy and talking" will in fact get Israel and the US out of this mess and everyone knows it, and everyone is banking on the UN as a medium to get us out of this mess, even Israel. I don't know maybe you're a fatalist and you actually do want WWIII to happen and judgement day to come. Cause let me tell you this thing can certainly escalate into that...
You seriously believe that the UN has HELPED hizbollah conceal its actions?? boy do you really need a reality pill... You can bet your dollar that the IDF knows intimately what goes on with the UN observers, so in fact anything the UN observers know the IDF knows, which again helps the IDF.