DISQUS

Don Myers · 4 years ago

Rob:

It's a shame you don't remember all the sex, rape, violence, drugs, and bestiality in the Bible. Yer missin' out dude! This fine publication is an excellent refresher course!

As for Grisham, I've alwasy thought he was the perfect writer for a nation that does most of it's reading on airplanes.

Of course, you're a staunch supporter of the party that wants to teach Bible stoies in science class---can an attack on reading skills be far behind?

Studies show again and again that the bettter educated you are, the less likely you are to vote Republican. Perhaps the GOP is trying to breed for stupidity!

Thatedeguy · 4 years ago

I'm not going to talk about the "less educated you are..." comment.

but frankly, why should the school board be responsible for making that choice? Aren't those our children?

Why not put it up for a vote? hell it was voting day on tuesday...

Plus then we can porkbarrel other books like anything that oprah chooses onto the bill and get them banned as well...

Mike · 4 years ago

Studies show again and again that the bettter educated you are, the less likely you are to vote Republican.

Don, this statement says a lot about your cognitive ability to reason. Even thinking that such a study is possible let alone could prove such a thing is laughable. Although after reading some of the comments you have posted prior, I would expect nothing less from you.

Back to the post. I must have missed the point when Grisham moved from entertaining light reading to literary master. I have read some of his books (and yes they were read on airplanes or on vacation) and they are entertaining (and far-fetched), but never once did I think of myself as more enlightened or intellectual after reading one. I find it hard to envision any sort of English class learning from one of his books.

docdave · 4 years ago

Don Myers said "Studies show again and again that the bettter educated you are, the less likely you are to vote Republican. Perhaps the GOP is trying to breed for stupidity!"

Another outrageous statement from a leftist liberal. Perhaps you would tell this uneducated conservative (only have 2 degrees, engineering and MBA) the source of your studies, if there really are such studies.

I believe that liberals control most of the education institutions in this country so if people are become increasing illiterate, which I believe they are, we know where to place the blame.

With regard to the Grissom novel, not too worry, thanks to liberal educators, most of our children don't know how to read.

Whether there is violence or not in the bible is a moot question. Besides children get more graphic violence from tv than they will ever get from books.

modern instances · 4 years ago

if people are become increasing illiterate, which I believe they are,

You've convinced me.

What is a John Grisham novel doing on the reading list of an English class?

That's my complaint. I was reading Dostoevsky, Homer, and Joyce in my HS English classes, and they couldn't be read over a weekend, like Grisham.

Here's an idea that should appease the people who objected: let's not have our students read anything, that way they'll never be exposed to anything that might upset them. And while we're at it, let's teach fairy tales in science class.

Dave · 4 years ago

Grisham is no literary master, sure. (Though, I can't help but add that Dickens was seen by his contemporaries as a bit of a cheap pulp novelist himself.)

In my scant experience with current high school reading lists, there are hardly any "literary masters" being assigned. Must be too difficult for the kids or something. After all, we can't, you know, challenge them or anything.

But this doesn't mean that nothing can be learned from Grisham. "ATTK" deals with issues of prejudice and whether revenge can be justified. These would be interesting topics for discussion in an academic setting.

And I'm not going to address the issue of "proper" content, because I'm not a parent. I will say that I read this book in high school myself, though on my own time. I went to a private religious high school where even Shakespeare was censored, so I had to go "black-market" to find anything to read that was even vaguely "inappropriate."

Ryan G · 4 years ago

If you, as a parent, don't want your kid reading the book... then say so! Tell the teacher, and the teacher will choose an alternative book.

(I'm sure Happy-Furry-Puppy-Time will qualify.)

Quit complaining and learn about responsibility. Sheesh.

docdave · 4 years ago

Teach reading in school? Not when there are more important things to do like bus the students to an anti-Bush rally
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47329

This was recently done by the L.A. Unified School District where according to the 2005 standardized CAT-6 test, 76 percent scored below the national average in reading tests, as did 70 percent of seventh-graders. You think that these students have the ability to read a Grissom novel?

Angus McMurphy · 4 years ago

Where to begin in deconstructing your "sources"?

Firstly, the first portion you highlighted speaks to (reputed) the proportion of liberals that come from the different levels of education offered. There are no raw numbers given, only percentages. Furthermore, the source seems to be disparaging "populists" far more than conservatives. But without actual numbers and a solide methodology, this is little more than an opinion piece.

Secondly, while Gore may have taken 14 of the 20 states with the "highest percentage of college graduates", so what? Do we know what percentage of those graduates voted? Do we know the educational backgrounds of voters versus non-voters in those states? No? Then what have you proven?

Don Myers · 4 years ago

"Perhaps you would tell this uneducated conservative (only have 2 degrees, engineering and MBA) the source of your studies, if there really are such studies." "Even thinking that such a study is possible let alone could prove such a thing is laughable."

Here ya go, boys (emphasis mine, to help those with poor reading skills find the important parts):

"The most obvious relationship is the predominance of the populist category among those with grade-school and high-school education, and the relatively small percentage of populists beyond high school. Conservatives are drawn about equally from each of the educational groups, while the proportions of liberals and libertarians increase quite significantly with higher levels of education." [source]

"City dwellers tend to be more diverse and educated, he says. "The Democrats have been the urban party since the New Deal," Klinkner says, and urban dwellers are less likely to be frequent churchgoers and have a higher level of education and more advanced degrees than their rural counterparts. More than 70 percent of voters in New York, San Francisco, Boston and Philadelphia voted against Bush in both 2000 and 2004. The president did win the largest cities in Texas as well as in San Diego, although not by a wide a margin." [source]

"Of the 20 states with the highest percentage of college graduates, Gore took 14. Of the states with the highest percentage of doctoral scientists and engineers, Gore won 15." [source]

On an anecdotal level, the fact that y'all fall for the GOP party line over and over again---even when it goes against all reason, evidence, and your own economic self-interests---seems to validate my "GOP=dumbass" theory.

Later on, we can discuss my "Democrat=slightly less dumbass" theory.

Bruce T. · 4 years ago

The "hubris" of this board is unbelievable.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. ...
-------------
1. A Time to Kill is an excellent book. I challenge anyone to read it and say that it's pulp fiction and that Grisham is a hack. I can easily see it being used in a school class for discussion and lessons.

2. Parents requesting books be taken off of school reading lists or out of school libraries, is nothing new. It happens from parents of all political affiliations.
Kudos to the school board for not bowing to the pressure of 3 emails from parents in their school district and 4 emails from parents outside of their school district.
---------
I would also like to say to Don Meyers: You, sir, are a jerk. I rarely post but I have been reading SayAnything, on an almost daily basis, for quite some time. I have noticed almost every post of yours includes insults to Republicans and conservatives, and personal insults to fellow posters. It shows a lack of maturity and intelligence on your part, and gives the impression that the only way you can back up your opinion is by insulting others.
Cheers,
Bruce

Thatedeguy · 4 years ago

How bout this. We rural "dumbasses" will stop farming and we'll see how long you "Smarty Pants" types last? Perhaps we should also point out how most of the "Red" states are lauded for their hard working people? Damn wusses out in those blue states you mentioned(California, New York) can't even handle guns...

modern instances · 4 years ago

You think that these students have the ability to read a Grissom novel?

Gus Grissom wrote a novel?!


As to the "who's smarter" argument, I would just say that the GOP is better at fooling and exploiting the uneducated and naive, as well as the religious.

Dave · 4 years ago

According to last year's exit polls, the highest educated segment of voters preferred Kerry 55-44. Hardly enough to justify Don's statement.

docdave · 4 years ago

Let's see, Don, I challenged you for sources so you did a google search and selected a couple without reading them thinking that we would be stupid like you and not check your sources. Where do I begin. The Cato source dated 1981 is so old that whatever it says about education levels and it doesn't say much has little or no bearing on todays party mix. The 'alternet' article states that "The real great divide in American politics is not between red and blue states, but between urban and rural voters" without making a distinct between inner city and suburbs. The article further defines liberal urban voters as "women, non-whites, people of higher [socio-economic status], and those who are less religious are more likely to be liberal". However there is still no support for your education statistics in the article. The milkeninstitute article you referenced is not available.

Dave · 4 years ago

If you want to know about college students, talk to one. They are programmed with the left's talking points.

I am?

Personally, I find that--'NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!'--claim to be false and downright repulsive.

Dave · 4 years ago

I've never read Grisham, but I would like to point out that most of the vaunted "literary establishment" labeled Hemingway a talentless hack.

Don Myers · 4 years ago

Dave:

According to last year's exit polls, Kerry won.

Bob:

During the 2004 Presidential campaign, the President was the subject to three times the negative articles as was John Kerry

During the 2004 Presidential campaign, Dubya was running a disasterous war based on a tissue of lies, running the largest deficit in history, shoveling MASSIVE corporate welfare to his pals, showing the worst job creation record since the Depression, and failing miserably against al Qaeda.

THAT'S why there were some negative stories, dude.

There is also the matter of the bias in the media.

Bullshit. I realize that this is a matter of faith with y'all---like the tooth fairy or The-Big-Beared-Old-White-Man-Who-Lives-In-The-Clouds---and no amount of reason or evidence will sway you.

But giant media conglomerates don't have a liberal bias. They have a pro-giant media conglomerate bias.

Considering that the "institutes of higher learning" have been programming their students with the left-wing agenda for over a generation, it's not at all surprising that they congregate in cities and support the lefties.

It's not "programming," dude. It's "math, science, and reading skills." I'm for it, you're against it.

robert108 · 4 years ago

Don: John Kerry lied about the war in Vietnam without being tortured to do it. Your contentions about the President are false, so that isn't the reason he got the negative coverage. Media bias is there every day.
You are confused about ownership in the media and what they spew out upon us every day.
If you want to know about college students, talk to one. They are programmed with the left's talking points. There is a growing conservative movement on college campuses, even with the repression coming from the administrators of those colleges, but the majority there are still lefty koolaid drinkers.
If only they got math, science, reading skills and knowledge of economics!

robert108 · 4 years ago

Considering that the "institutes of higher learning" have been programming their students with the left-wing agenda for over a generation, it's not at all surprising that they congregate in cities and support the lefties. I would expect it. There is also the matter of the bias in the media. During the 2004 Presidential campaign, the President was the subject to three times the negative articles as was John Kerry. Since the more educated tend to read more, that would also be a factor. It's really not all that complicated; it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Andrew · 4 years ago

Studies show again and again that the bettter educated you are, the less likely you are to vote Republican. Perhaps the GOP is trying to breed for stupidity!

I've actually read similar studies, except there were some differences. People with only high school diplomas tended to vote Republican, people with a 4 year degree tended to vote Democrat, and people with a masters or PhD tended to vote Republican.

And what's with everyone criticizing the book? Its one friggin' book in a class that probably reads a dozen or more for the year. Plus it deals with many societal and moral questions and gives students a larger view of literary works beyond the "classics" that have just become generic staples of our educational system. Grisham might not have the respect of every critic, but at the end of the day he's probably sold more books than the vast majority of his peers. In my experience, its best to look at all successful works with an open mind no matter how sophmoric or untalented the writing is. There has to be something good about them if they became successful in the first place.

Carol · 4 years ago

I would also like to say to Don Meyers: You, sir, are a jerk. I rarely post but I have been reading SayAnything, on an almost daily basis, for quite some time. I have noticed almost every post of yours includes insults to Republicans and conservatives, and personal insults to fellow posters. It shows a lack of maturity and intelligence on your part, and gives the impression that the only way you can back up your opinion is by insulting others.
Cheers,
Bruce

I've noticed the same thing.

modern instances · 4 years ago

I would also like to say to Don Meyers: You, sir, are a jerk. I rarely post but I have been reading SayAnything, on an almost daily basis, for quite some time. I have noticed almost every post of yours includes insults to Republicans and conservatives, and personal insults to fellow posters. It shows a lack of maturity and intelligence on your part, and gives the impression that the only way you can back up your opinion is by insulting others.
Cheers,
Bruce

I look forward to your rebukes of other posters who employ the same tactics, but are on your side of the aisle.

Don Myers · 4 years ago

Bruce and Carol:

According to legend, P.T. Barnum once said "It doesn't matter what they say about you as long as they spell your name right." So I appreciate your kind words, but next time please note that it's "Myers"...one 'e.'


Andrew:

Quite right---given a choice between students who read John Grisham and students who do not read, I'd prefer the former.

Rob · 4 years ago

I look forward to your rebukes of other posters who employ the same tactics, but are on your side of the aisle.

I've never once heard you rebuke somebody from your "side of the aisle" when they engage in personal attacks here MI. But, really, it wasn't like Bruce was making a blanket statement about all liberals or all Democrats. He was addressing Don specifically. And he was right on target. So I really don't see what your quibble is.

I mean, using your logic, it's sort of like accusing Bruce of supporting the KKK because you've never heard of him denouncing it.

Andrew:

And what's with everyone criticizing the book? Its one friggin' book in a class that probably reads a dozen or more for the year.

My point wasn't to criticize Grisham. Frankly, I didn't think this post would get this large of a response. I was basically highlighting a rather silly fight between a local school board and a group of parents, mentioning in passing that I wasn't sure that a Grisham novel was "up to snuff" for an AP-level class.

But, really, that's just my personal opinion. I'm a Grisham fan. I've read (or listened to) pretty much all of his books. I happen to think that A Time To Kill is not AP-level literature.

But what do I know. I'm not a professional educator working in a union-protected job with artificially inflated wages and no impetus to work above the bare minimum requirements to maintain employment.

modern instances · 4 years ago

I wonder if Barnum actually said anything he supposedly said. Same for Franklin and Twain I suppose.

Rob · 4 years ago

MI: You could read their books, I suppose; then you would know.

I think MI was implying that a lot of times famous quotes get attributed to people who did not really say them, but maybe could have.

Oscar Wilde is often a victim of this, as is W.C. Fields, Barnum, Twain, etc. In a lot of instances the quote is usually an old proverb or has an anonymous source and is simply sourced to one of these characters to give the quote more flair.

Happens a lot.

robert108 · 4 years ago

MI: You could read their books, I suppose; then you would know.

robert108 · 4 years ago

Once again, reading their writings would prevent such victimization; we aren't really helpless in this.

modern instances · 4 years ago

I've never once heard you rebuke somebody from your "side of the aisle" when they engage in personal attacks here MI.

Yes? And? Who on the other side of the aisle have I rebuked? I either ignore them or taunt them, depending on my mood.


Speaking of which:

Once again, reading their writings would prevent such victimization; we aren't really helpless in this.

Victimization?! What in god's holy name are you blathering about?

Rob · 4 years ago

Yes? And? Who on the other side of the aisle have I rebuked? I either ignore them or taunt them, depending on my mood.

I'm not sure what you're asking, but my point was that you jumped all over Bruce for telling Don to have better manners because he hadn't done the same to some from his "side of the aisle."

Have we sunk so low that even a cry for civility must be polarized?

robert108 · 4 years ago

MI: You make my point so eloquently. Thank you.

docdave · 4 years ago

"Have we sunk so low that even a cry for civility must be polarized?"

Well, if you consider 'taunting' a polarizing action, I think that the answer to that question is a qualified yes.

likwidshoe · 4 years ago

Just about every post "Don Myers" participates in becomes about him. This is a classic example of a narcissistic personality disorder.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

People with narcissistic personality exhibit a persistent pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration and a lack of empathy.

They have an exaggerated sense of self-importance, are absorbed by fantasies of unlimited success, and seek constant attention.

The narcissistic personality is oversensitive to failure and often complains of multiple somatic symptoms.

Prone to extreme mood swings between self-admiration and insecurity, these people tend to exploit interpersonal relationships.

Onset is early adulthood.

Some of the typical signs are:

* grandiose sense of self-importance.
* exaggerates achievements and talents
* preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love
* believes that he is 'special' and 'unique' and can only be understood by, or should associate with other special or high-status people
* requires excessive admiration
* sense of entitlement. (unreasonable expectation of special treatment by others)
* interpersonally exploitative.. uses others to his advantage
* lacks empathy
* envious of others
* arrogant behavior and attitude.

We all should keep this in mind when we are talking around "Don Myers" (you can't talk with him). Narcissitic personality disorder is a mental illness. We can only hope that "Don Myers" continues to take his Effexor pills and work on that damaging mental illness of his.

Dave · 4 years ago

Narcissitic personality disorder is a mental illness.

No, mental illnesses are a myth created by the multi-billion dollar psychology industry.

likwidshoe · 4 years ago

No, mental illnesses are a myth created by the multi-billion dollar psychology industry.

You get funnier and funnier Dave. I know that you're against religions for some reason, but you should really check out the Scientologists. You share a lot of the same views.

Dave · 4 years ago

You share a lot of the same views.

Name two.

Dave · 4 years ago

Likwid: I'm still waiting.

Rob · 4 years ago

Well, I don't know anything about Scientology, but let's go back to this whopper:

No, mental illnesses are a myth created by the multi-billion dollar psychology industry.

I'll agree that some mental illnesses are clung to by malingerers unable to cope with society, but to say that all mental illnesses are fictional is the sort of ludicrous thing a naive kid would say.

Pedophilia, the desire to molest children, is a mental illness. Schizophrenia is also. Bi-polar disorder is as well.

Are you saying that all of these things are fictional?

no name · 2 years ago

The reason the book was read in the accelerated english class is becuase we compared it with "To Kill a Mockingbird." We had discussions about the parallels between the classic and contemporary books that dealt with very similar topics. The books were enjoyed by almost everyone in the class and I personally learned a lot from the experience.