Technically, all of France has yet to be conquered by Germany. Hitler left Vichy France nominally "free," and even Bismarck didn't conquer all of France--von Moltke more or less stopped in Paris. They did surrender twice, though, to both Bismarck and Schicklgruber.
To be fair as well, France really only came together as a unified nation in the early Renaissance.
That said, though, there are some good things to be said about France. The foods speak of a nation that enjoyed consistent prosperity. For example, eating rare beef means that you can afford to raise cattle for meat instead of as draft animals. Also, we've been blessed with French thinkers like Say and Bastiat.
aNONOMISLY
· 3 years ago
Don't forget the great hand they extended America during America's own Revolutionary War.
J'adore les française
aNONOMISLY
· 3 years ago
Don't forget the great hand they extended America during America's own Revolutionary War.
J'adore les française!!
aNONOMISLY
· 3 years ago
doc, I don't think it's a 'we payed you back, therefore we are not endebted to you anymore' thing.
aNONOMISLY
· 3 years ago
I'll give you a perhaps awkward example
your a teen who have left his house (your parent didn't treat you well), stuff isn't going well. ...foster parens adopt you, helping you become the great person you are today... your foster parent is dying of kedney failure (an almost guaranteed death) ..you give him one of
aNONOMISLY
· 3 years ago
...one of yours
The Whistler
· 3 years ago
Technically, all of France has yet to be conquered by Germany.
I think it's a fair statement to say that France was absolutely conquered in WW2.
But it's not fair to say they were twice. Besides, they were playing against the Germans.
Ken McCracken
· 3 years ago
They were pretty soundly beaten by the Germans in 1871 also, I would say.
Democritus
· 3 years ago
Ken McCracken,
Is Bastille Day France's 'birthday', as July 4th is for the United States? Well I don't know, though it is certainly France's national holiday (as of 1880); France has suffered through the Terror, had emperors, twelve constitutions, five republics, and been conquered by the Germans twice since the mob stormed the Bastille prison on July 14, 1789. Hardly an unbroken reign for the democratic ideals of the revolution, but they seem to have sorted it all out for the most part.
A lot of that assumes that the essence of Revolutionary settlement didn't survive, but in fact it did. France was far more centralized after the Revolution, it had new, much more rationalized and modernized legal codes that remained in place no matter who was in power, etc. A lot of France's 19th and 20th century prosperity is directly linked to things like Napoleon's Civil Code, etc. which modernized French business law, etc.
Robert Perry,
Technically, all of France has yet to be conquered by Germany. Hitler left Vichy France nominally "free"...
No, all of France was eventually occupied by the Germans during WWII. They wanted to keep any southern landings at bay. Of course it didn't work; Franco-American forces invaded in August and sent the Germans scurrying up the Rhone river valley.
...and even Bismarck didn't conquer all of France--von Moltke more or less stopped in Paris.
There were German forces south of Paris during the Franco-Prussian war.
To be fair as well, France really only came together as a unified nation in the early Renaissance.
No, France as a geographical unit as we know it today was only completed in the 1760s. As a unified nation with a common languge, currency, system of civil law, system of taxation, etc. that only came into being after the Revolution. Really, it was a balkanized pre-nationalist state prior to 1789.
The foods speak of a nation that enjoyed consistent prosperity.
In a way most of the best French food is the food of the peasantry, and that is based on non-choice cuts of meat (like cow brains, neck, etc.). No, the peasantry did a great deal to make really terrible portions of meat, etc. taste wonderful.
Also, we've been blessed with French thinkers like Say and Bastiat.
The entire culture of style, itself a boon to capitalism, was in large part a French invention, as well as much of modern science, etc.
docdave,
There were several hundred thousand French soldiers (black and white) involved in WWII after the fall of France in June 1940. Unfortunately they (along with a lot of unrecognized American and British units) weren't in the "sexy" areas of the war that are now generally remembered in film (e.g., D-Day); they were fighting in North Africa, Italy and southern France. Indeed, the tactical deftness and courage of French soldiers in Italy went a long way toward making up for the 1940 collapse (something that French officers and soldiers were committed to doing) and made the French forces there the most successful in gaining territory that was generally defended "to the last man" by crack German paratroopers. You can read about a lot of this in Ellis' Cassino - The Hollw Victory: The Battle for Rome January-June 1944.
The French were also were involved in one of the most celebrated battles in North Africa - that of Bir Hakeim. The French position there was mercilessly attacked by a much larger force for sixteen days before a retreat was ordered by the British (the Free French were under British control). If the French position had quickly collapsed it is probable that Rommel would have quickly overtaken the Eighth army and been in Cairo soon after that. Bir Hakeim gave the British the breathing space to regroup, reinforce, dig-in, etc. Honestly it is too bad the battle of Bir Hakeim hasn't been made into a movie (in the English language at least); its got all the elements of a great war movie.
Democritus
· 3 years ago
Robert perry,
Franco-American forces invaded in August 1944 is what I meant to include.
Oh, and another interesting French innovation is found in art - prior to the Impressionists (who were uber-individualists to say the least) one went to government sponsored art-shows and the like. The Impressionists brought art to the masses and created their own cross-Atlantic commercial art networks to sell their art. I always think of the Impressionists as some of the coolest capitalists in history.
Democritus
· 3 years ago
docdave,
I should also state that some of the most unrecognized were Polish military units, who fought tenaciously in Italy and France. Indeed, the effort that French, Polish, Czech, etc. nationals took just to get out of occupied Europe and join up was heroic in itself. Sometimes they would come as individuals, sometimes (as in the case of French naval vessels or many members of the Polish army) they come in large groups.
In fact, most of the Polish army (that is, those members not massacred at Katyn) and many simply able-bodied Poles had prior to the outbreak of the war between the Germans and Soviets been sent off to labor camps and the like in the Soviet Union. Then, under pressure for the U.S. and the U.K., they were released and took a harrowing journey through the USSR and into the middle east and then were shipped to Italy.
All Comments
Only conquered by the Germans twice? Man...
To be fair as well, France really only came together as a unified nation in the early Renaissance.
That said, though, there are some good things to be said about France. The foods speak of a nation that enjoyed consistent prosperity. For example, eating rare beef means that you can afford to raise cattle for meat instead of as draft animals. Also, we've been blessed with French thinkers like Say and Bastiat.
J'adore les française
J'adore les française!!
your a teen who have left his house (your parent didn't treat you well), stuff isn't going well. ...foster parens adopt you, helping you become the great person you are today... your foster parent is dying of kedney failure (an almost guaranteed death) ..you give him one of
I think it's a fair statement to say that France was absolutely conquered in WW2.
But it's not fair to say they were twice. Besides, they were playing against the Germans.
Is Bastille Day France's 'birthday', as July 4th is for the United States? Well I don't know, though it is certainly France's national holiday (as of 1880); France has suffered through the Terror, had emperors, twelve constitutions, five republics, and been conquered by the Germans twice since the mob stormed the Bastille prison on July 14, 1789. Hardly an unbroken reign for the democratic ideals of the revolution, but they seem to have sorted it all out for the most part.
A lot of that assumes that the essence of Revolutionary settlement didn't survive, but in fact it did. France was far more centralized after the Revolution, it had new, much more rationalized and modernized legal codes that remained in place no matter who was in power, etc. A lot of France's 19th and 20th century prosperity is directly linked to things like Napoleon's Civil Code, etc. which modernized French business law, etc.
Robert Perry,
No, all of France was eventually occupied by the Germans during WWII. They wanted to keep any southern landings at bay. Of course it didn't work; Franco-American forces invaded in August and sent the Germans scurrying up the Rhone river valley.
There were German forces south of Paris during the Franco-Prussian war.
No, France as a geographical unit as we know it today was only completed in the 1760s. As a unified nation with a common languge, currency, system of civil law, system of taxation, etc. that only came into being after the Revolution. Really, it was a balkanized pre-nationalist state prior to 1789.
In a way most of the best French food is the food of the peasantry, and that is based on non-choice cuts of meat (like cow brains, neck, etc.). No, the peasantry did a great deal to make really terrible portions of meat, etc. taste wonderful.
The entire culture of style, itself a boon to capitalism, was in large part a French invention, as well as much of modern science, etc.
docdave,
There were several hundred thousand French soldiers (black and white) involved in WWII after the fall of France in June 1940. Unfortunately they (along with a lot of unrecognized American and British units) weren't in the "sexy" areas of the war that are now generally remembered in film (e.g., D-Day); they were fighting in North Africa, Italy and southern France. Indeed, the tactical deftness and courage of French soldiers in Italy went a long way toward making up for the 1940 collapse (something that French officers and soldiers were committed to doing) and made the French forces there the most successful in gaining territory that was generally defended "to the last man" by crack German paratroopers. You can read about a lot of this in Ellis' Cassino - The Hollw Victory: The Battle for Rome January-June 1944.
The French were also were involved in one of the most celebrated battles in North Africa - that of Bir Hakeim. The French position there was mercilessly attacked by a much larger force for sixteen days before a retreat was ordered by the British (the Free French were under British control). If the French position had quickly collapsed it is probable that Rommel would have quickly overtaken the Eighth army and been in Cairo soon after that. Bir Hakeim gave the British the breathing space to regroup, reinforce, dig-in, etc. Honestly it is too bad the battle of Bir Hakeim hasn't been made into a movie (in the English language at least); its got all the elements of a great war movie.
Franco-American forces invaded in August 1944 is what I meant to include.
Oh, and another interesting French innovation is found in art - prior to the Impressionists (who were uber-individualists to say the least) one went to government sponsored art-shows and the like. The Impressionists brought art to the masses and created their own cross-Atlantic commercial art networks to sell their art. I always think of the Impressionists as some of the coolest capitalists in history.
I should also state that some of the most unrecognized were Polish military units, who fought tenaciously in Italy and France. Indeed, the effort that French, Polish, Czech, etc. nationals took just to get out of occupied Europe and join up was heroic in itself. Sometimes they would come as individuals, sometimes (as in the case of French naval vessels or many members of the Polish army) they come in large groups.
In fact, most of the Polish army (that is, those members not massacred at Katyn) and many simply able-bodied Poles had prior to the outbreak of the war between the Germans and Soviets been sent off to labor camps and the like in the Soviet Union. Then, under pressure for the U.S. and the U.K., they were released and took a harrowing journey through the USSR and into the middle east and then were shipped to Italy.