This story is a perfect example of how "affirmative" action can create bitterness, contempt, and anger.
In the goal of erasing and/or easing racial tension and disparity, it creates it.
Repeat after me: liberalism always produces the exact opposite of it's stated intent. You can write that in stone, it never fails.
likwidshoe
· 4 years ago
Mark J says, "Look, no one disagrees that Affirmative Action benefits minorities."
Actually a lot of people would disagree. Sure it's an immediate benefit at first, but then one always has to duck suspicions of, "did he make it here in life on his own merit, or because of his skin color?" And that's a perfectly valid question. "Did he make it here at this company, school, whatever; or was he brought here?"
Yeah, that's true... I just meant "short-term" benefits. If you really think about it, it's damn insulting to those minorities who don't need it.
Mark J
· 4 years ago
Look, no one disagrees that Affirmative Action benefits minorities. People just refuse to see that a benefit given to someone is always a detriment to someone else.
You can't give X a job without denying it to Y.
And if you look objectively at "advantage," what is the criterion that best indicates the level of advantage? It's money. Is a rich black kid disadvantaged? The left was quick to blast Condi Rice, calling her a spoiled little black girl who never had to deal with adversity. I think they just answered their own question on that one. Is a poor white kid disadvantaged? Absolutely.
So if you're going to help people, help those who really need it. If you only help minorities, it's unfair to poor whites, and unnecessary for rich minorities. If you're going to play Robin Hood, at least play honestly.
Charlie on the Pennsylvania Tu
· 4 years ago
You cannot correct racial injustice with racial injustice.
Andrew
· 4 years ago
So if you’re going to help people, help those who really need it.
Yea, but then is it fair to the advantaged people? Why should someone more qualified for a job or college be denied either just because someone poorer than them applies?
Quotas are unconstitutional no matter how they are used. The government needs to back out of business affairs.
Sure advantaged kids have a leg up on disavantaged kids...but hey, that's life. I'm not rich, but maybe if I work hard, I can give my children advantages I didn't have and so on and so on. People expect to go from rags to riches overnight, but most of the time it really takes generations of hard work to really move up in the world.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Quotas are unconstitutional no matter how they are used. The government needs to back out of business affairs.
Amen.
Oliver
· 4 years ago
You say: "In fact, because they’re white they’re seen as having a leg up."
That's because, more often than not, they do. I don't believe in penalizing people, but to simply dismiss ingrained societal racism is simply pollyanna politics. Some of your other commenters claimed that the idea that black kids have to work twice as hard is a myth. I wish that it were.
Among Asian Americans there is a strong social fabric, where helping each other is encouraged. This is a failure of black America, initialized by past slights but now used as a crutch by many. So, the two situations are not the same - nor are Asians held up as the criminal element in the media with the regularity of Blacks and Hispanics.
Do you guys understand that simply leaving these kids to twist in the wind will result in another generation of underachievement, another generation of crime and the cycle continues yet again.
I repeat that I don't believe all of the problems are external to the racial groups in question nor are the answers all in affirmative action, but to simply act as if there is no problem and that no institutional privelege for white Americans exists is malarkey of the worst brand.
You guys say "The government needs to back out of business affairs."
So the government should simply rubber stamp discriminatory practices in the pursuit of making money? I don't think so.
Andrew
· 4 years ago
Oliver, Yes, discriminatory practices are wrong. Maybe the government should try to prevent them, but quotas aren't the answer. This problem is a societal one and goes beyond the controls of government.
I also think that the black community likes to pretend that discriminatory hiring practices are a bigger problem then they really are. Most businesses today have one simple goal: to make as much money as possible. Now if hiring better employees would make me more money, than wouldn't I hire the most qualified? Black or white, I'd hire whoever would put more money in my pocket.
nor are Asians held up as the criminal element in the media with the regularity of Blacks and Hispanics.
Could it be that Asians committ less crime proportionately to all of the other groups?
Some of your other commenters claimed that the idea that black kids have to work twice as hard is a myth. I wish that it were.
Prove it. I attend a unviersity with a fairly large number of African Americans. A small number of them work twice as hard. But then again, there are also white students working twice as hard as everyone else. You are just making excuses.
Rob
· 4 years ago
Ok, lets say for a moment that all the things you're telling as about the disadvantages of being black are 100% true. Do the benefits we see from affirmative action (more opportunities academically and business-wise for minorities) outweigh the price we pay for affirmative action (punishing non-minority students/employees who are equally deserving of economic opportunities, sending a message to minorities that their skin color entitles them to something special)?
I don't think they do. Now I'm not saying that we don't need a solution...I'm just saying that affirmative action isn't it.
slarrow
· 4 years ago
You're changing the subject, Oliver. The point of Rob's post is to force supporters of affirmative action to face that their position (1) has real costs, and (2) imposes those costs in an unjust manner. Which of these do you deny?
We can go round and round on just how hard it is for "black people" (which is a problem because it treats "black people" as a single monolithic block which just ain't so), but is it really going to get us anywhere? I don't think there are many on the Right who wouldn't happily stomp on actual practicing racists, nor do many on the Right deny that there are unique problems facing some/many black people. But the charge against affirmative action as the remedy is that (a) it's unjust and (b) it's counterproductive. What do you say to those concerns?
Andrew
· 4 years ago
I’m talking about way before the university level when it comes to having to work twice as hard.
In high school and grade school? I went to a suburban school with a fair number of blacks. We all got the same education and were treated exactly the same. I assume you are referring to inner-city schools, though. But aren't there white kids that attend those schools too? I'm not denying that most city schools aren't as good as suburban ones, but then again the same can be said about rural ones as well. So this problem has nothing to do with race; it is a matter of increasing the quality of our schools.
You continually reapeat that blacks work twice as hard. You don't answer how. I'd like real world examples.
Andrew
· 4 years ago
Oliver, Like Rob, I admit that there is a problem with the black community's position in America. But I don't see how anyone can justify affirmitave action.
If I stole $10 from you, would it be right for me to steal $10 from someone else just to pay you back? It might solve your problem, but I just created a problem for someone else.
Rob
· 4 years ago
to simply act as if there is no problem and that no institutional privilege for white Americans exists is malarkey of the worst brand.
I don't think anyone here is saying there isn't a problem. Yes, racism exists. It is a problem. We just don't think affirmative action (what we're seeing as solving inequality with more inequality) is the solution.
So the government should simply rubber stamp discriminatory practices in the pursuit of making money? I don’t think so.
Of course we don't want the government to "rubber stamp" discrimination. To imply that we do is disingenuous. I think the government should punish, harshly, discriminatory practices when and where they appear. Lets end discrimination by enforcing fair hiring practices, not backing unfair hiring practices in the opposite direction.
And nobody is trying to say that these minority kids don't have it tough, but we shouldn't be implying that kids in the situation I described above get off much easier. Life's tough all over. All we can do is try to make sure the "playing field" is as level as possible. I don't think we're doing that with affirmative action.
Oliver
· 4 years ago
I also think that the black community likes to pretend that discriminatory hiring practices are a bigger problem then they really are. So naive. The biggest companies in America still have a problem with this. It's not a ginned up media conspiracy. Check this out. In an ideal world, companies wouldnt be discriminatory in their hiring. We don't live in an ideal world.
Could it be that Asians committ less crime proportionately to all of the other groups? You deny that there's an ongoing societal stigma against blacks, particularly black men? I don't deny that blacks are comitting crime, and that many of the problems are within the community -- but to assume that the dominant media image has no part in the problem? Denial.
Making excuses? I'm talking about way before the university level when it comes to having to work twice as hard. I'm talking about kids that have a community openly antagonistic to academic advancement, teachers who buy into it and try to infantilize their pupils, a media environment that tells them they can't achieve, etc. I think it is you who are making the excuses here.
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
Sorry about that "Testing Metafile" thing at the beginning of my last comment... that was an error... ignore it.
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
Testing Metafile
Everyone... The problem here is not one of racial platitude (which can be handled with the Law) but with racial attitudes, which can not be handled with the law. Forcing a racist to hire based upon race is not going to change their opinion... it is going to solidify it.
Another MAJOR problem is the "out of wedlock" birth rates and (quite frankly) the culture. Too much of the black culture is about trying to be the WORST person. Too few espouse the family values that develop individuals into productive members of society.
Changing the mindset of the ignorant racists (white and black) and the mindset of the "gangsta's" should be the focus. Providing handouts ensures that the current generation of blacks will be kept in a non-compete mentality. There is no reason to achieve greatness if you find everything you need handed to you.
There is a lot less racism out there than there used to be. There is still some, but there is some from BOTH SIDES. Can you imagine if the Congress of the US wanted to set up a Congressional WHITE Caucus?
Rob, The new preview thing is cool!
Seth Yantiss
· 4 years ago
Oh, and... Great post Rob!
It has been my experience that people develop chips on their shoulders. EVERYONE does! Someone cuts in front of you at the store, you get a chip. Someone gets a better car than you, a better house, you get a chip. Envy builds chips.
The most successful of people are those that are able to flick those chips off of their shoulders as soon as the form. Once you realize that few people are "out to get you" your life becomes yours to mold.
One of the best things about Christianity (and most religions) is that once immersed in them, you relinquish control of your life to God. Once your life is in God's hands, you tend to develop less chips... you don't *TRY* to get people to accept you... You let things happen as you live your life according to morals and ethics rather than by "what others will think".
Too many worry about "What will my friends think" and less about "doing what's right".
likwidshoe
· 4 years ago
Oliver says, "That’s because, more often than not, they do. I don’t believe in penalizing people, but..."
Everything before "but" is B.S. You say you don't believe in penalizing people, yet that's exactly what you're doing with "affirmative" action.
This is a failure of black America, initialized by past slights but now used as a crutch by many.
Well I'm glad you admit this. Now you need to look for a solution rather than enforcing the behavior.
slarrow says, "The point of Rob’s post is to force supporters of affirmative action to face that their position (1) has real costs, and (2) imposes those costs in an unjust manner. Which of these do you deny?"
It's obvious that supporters of "affirmative" action don't deny either of those. They instead ignore the point.
All Comments
In the goal of erasing and/or easing racial tension and disparity, it creates it.
Repeat after me: liberalism always produces the exact opposite of it's stated intent. You can write that in stone, it never fails.
Actually a lot of people would disagree. Sure it's an immediate benefit at first, but then one always has to duck suspicions of, "did he make it here in life on his own merit, or because of his skin color?" And that's a perfectly valid question. "Did he make it here at this company, school, whatever; or was he brought here?"
La Shawn Barber has more to say on the subject.
You can't give X a job without denying it to Y.
And if you look objectively at "advantage," what is the criterion that best indicates the level of advantage? It's money. Is a rich black kid disadvantaged? The left was quick to blast Condi Rice, calling her a spoiled little black girl who never had to deal with adversity. I think they just answered their own question on that one. Is a poor white kid disadvantaged? Absolutely.
So if you're going to help people, help those who really need it. If you only help minorities, it's unfair to poor whites, and unnecessary for rich minorities. If you're going to play Robin Hood, at least play honestly.
Yea, but then is it fair to the advantaged people? Why should someone more qualified for a job or college be denied either just because someone poorer than them applies?
Quotas are unconstitutional no matter how they are used. The government needs to back out of business affairs.
Sure advantaged kids have a leg up on disavantaged kids...but hey, that's life. I'm not rich, but maybe if I work hard, I can give my children advantages I didn't have and so on and so on. People expect to go from rags to riches overnight, but most of the time it really takes generations of hard work to really move up in the world.
Amen.
That's because, more often than not, they do. I don't believe in penalizing people, but to simply dismiss ingrained societal racism is simply pollyanna politics. Some of your other commenters claimed that the idea that black kids have to work twice as hard is a myth. I wish that it were.
Among Asian Americans there is a strong social fabric, where helping each other is encouraged. This is a failure of black America, initialized by past slights but now used as a crutch by many. So, the two situations are not the same - nor are Asians held up as the criminal element in the media with the regularity of Blacks and Hispanics.
Do you guys understand that simply leaving these kids to twist in the wind will result in another generation of underachievement, another generation of crime and the cycle continues yet again.
I repeat that I don't believe all of the problems are external to the racial groups in question nor are the answers all in affirmative action, but to simply act as if there is no problem and that no institutional privelege for white Americans exists is malarkey of the worst brand.
You guys say "The government needs to back out of business affairs."
So the government should simply rubber stamp discriminatory practices in the pursuit of making money? I don't think so.
Yes, discriminatory practices are wrong. Maybe the government should try to prevent them, but quotas aren't the answer. This problem is a societal one and goes beyond the controls of government.
I also think that the black community likes to pretend that discriminatory hiring practices are a bigger problem then they really are. Most businesses today have one simple goal: to make as much money as possible. Now if hiring better employees would make me more money, than wouldn't I hire the most qualified? Black or white, I'd hire whoever would put more money in my pocket.
nor are Asians held up as the criminal element in the media with the regularity of Blacks and Hispanics.
Could it be that Asians committ less crime proportionately to all of the other groups?
Some of your other commenters claimed that the idea that black kids have to work twice as hard is a myth. I wish that it were.
Prove it. I attend a unviersity with a fairly large number of African Americans. A small number of them work twice as hard. But then again, there are also white students working twice as hard as everyone else.
You are just making excuses.
I don't think they do. Now I'm not saying that we don't need a solution...I'm just saying that affirmative action isn't it.
We can go round and round on just how hard it is for "black people" (which is a problem because it treats "black people" as a single monolithic block which just ain't so), but is it really going to get us anywhere? I don't think there are many on the Right who wouldn't happily stomp on actual practicing racists, nor do many on the Right deny that there are unique problems facing some/many black people. But the charge against affirmative action as the remedy is that (a) it's unjust and (b) it's counterproductive. What do you say to those concerns?
In high school and grade school? I went to a suburban school with a fair number of blacks. We all got the same education and were treated exactly the same. I assume you are referring to inner-city schools, though. But aren't there white kids that attend those schools too? I'm not denying that most city schools aren't as good as suburban ones, but then again the same can be said about rural ones as well. So this problem has nothing to do with race; it is a matter of increasing the quality of our schools.
You continually reapeat that blacks work twice as hard. You don't answer how. I'd like real world examples.
Like Rob, I admit that there is a problem with the black community's position in America. But I don't see how anyone can justify affirmitave action.
If I stole $10 from you, would it be right for me to steal $10 from someone else just to pay you back? It might solve your problem, but I just created a problem for someone else.
I don't think anyone here is saying there isn't a problem. Yes, racism exists. It is a problem. We just don't think affirmative action (what we're seeing as solving inequality with more inequality) is the solution.
So the government should simply rubber stamp discriminatory practices in the pursuit of making money? I don’t think so.
Of course we don't want the government to "rubber stamp" discrimination. To imply that we do is disingenuous. I think the government should punish, harshly, discriminatory practices when and where they appear. Lets end discrimination by enforcing fair hiring practices, not backing unfair hiring practices in the opposite direction.
And nobody is trying to say that these minority kids don't have it tough, but we shouldn't be implying that kids in the situation I described above get off much easier. Life's tough all over. All we can do is try to make sure the "playing field" is as level as possible. I don't think we're doing that with affirmative action.
So naive. The biggest companies in America still have a problem with this. It's not a ginned up media conspiracy. Check this out. In an ideal world, companies wouldnt be discriminatory in their hiring. We don't live in an ideal world.
Could it be that Asians committ less crime proportionately to all of the other groups?
You deny that there's an ongoing societal stigma against blacks, particularly black men? I don't deny that blacks are comitting crime, and that many of the problems are within the community -- but to assume that the dominant media image has no part in the problem? Denial.
Making excuses? I'm talking about way before the university level when it comes to having to work twice as hard. I'm talking about kids that have a community openly antagonistic to academic advancement, teachers who buy into it and try to infantilize their pupils, a media environment that tells them they can't achieve, etc. I think it is you who are making the excuses here.
Everyone... The problem here is not one of racial platitude (which can be handled with the Law) but with racial attitudes, which can not be handled with the law. Forcing a racist to hire based upon race is not going to change their opinion... it is going to solidify it.
Another MAJOR problem is the "out of wedlock" birth rates and (quite frankly) the culture. Too much of the black culture is about trying to be the WORST person. Too few espouse the family values that develop individuals into productive members of society.
Changing the mindset of the ignorant racists (white and black) and the mindset of the "gangsta's" should be the focus. Providing handouts ensures that the current generation of blacks will be kept in a non-compete mentality. There is no reason to achieve greatness if you find everything you need handed to you.
There is a lot less racism out there than there used to be. There is still some, but there is some from BOTH SIDES. Can you imagine if the Congress of the US wanted to set up a Congressional WHITE Caucus?
Rob, The new preview thing is cool!
It has been my experience that people develop chips on their shoulders. EVERYONE does! Someone cuts in front of you at the store, you get a chip. Someone gets a better car than you, a better house, you get a chip. Envy builds chips.
The most successful of people are those that are able to flick those chips off of their shoulders as soon as the form. Once you realize that few people are "out to get you" your life becomes yours to mold.
One of the best things about Christianity (and most religions) is that once immersed in them, you relinquish control of your life to God. Once your life is in God's hands, you tend to develop less chips... you don't *TRY* to get people to accept you... You let things happen as you live your life according to morals and ethics rather than by "what others will think".
Too many worry about "What will my friends think" and less about "doing what's right".
Everything before "but" is B.S. You say you don't believe in penalizing people, yet that's exactly what you're doing with "affirmative" action.
This is a failure of black America, initialized by past slights but now used as a crutch by many.
Well I'm glad you admit this. Now you need to look for a solution rather than enforcing the behavior.
slarrow says, "The point of Rob’s post is to force supporters of affirmative action to face that their position (1) has real costs, and (2) imposes those costs in an unjust manner. Which of these do you deny?"
It's obvious that supporters of "affirmative" action don't deny either of those. They instead ignore the point.